(OT) Golden Age

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:10 pm

We'll id have to say that Ultima 7 marked the peak of the golden age of computer RPG's - and im making the assumption that you'll all agree with me. So im just wondering which other games\series you would place in "the golden age"

i'll start with an easy one - bards tale

MV · Post by MV » Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:52 am

Golden Age:

Mmmmm....

Origin: Ultima and up to wing commander3. And the occasional spun-off gem like system shock and privateer.

Sierra: Basically every Quest (King's, space, hero's), series and games right up to halflife. Then they just seemed to go quiet. (Which happened to basically be the end of the golden age timeframe IMO).

ID software: Doom and games based on the Doom engine like heretic. Basically up to quake2 for them. Doom3 looks like their triumphant return to the goodness of a storyline and single player game.

SSI: Basically when they were in business for themselves and made DnD 2nd ED games. (Gold box series). EOB was easily the best series that SSI had their name on.

Bullfrog: Just about everything they made was good back in the day. Syndicate, magic carpet, dungeon keeper, etc.

Blizzard: Everything up to Diablo2. WarCraft3 was a real pile of .... (Especially since they could have spent that time making Starcraft 2 instead of the same old boring Orc thing).

Bioware: They are just keeping the spirit of the golden age alive for me. Except for POR2, all their games are great.

As for Bard's Tale series, my favorite is actually Bard's Tale 2 Destiny Knight. The first and third arn't that great to me.

Jiles · Post by **Jiles** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:09 am

Hate to split hairs, but BioWare was not responsible for POR2. That dubious honour goes to UbiSoft.

You left Black Isle/Interplay of that list as well. They at least deserve some credit for Fallout 1 & 2 and Planescape: Torment.

Trevor_Clim · Post by **Trevor_Clim** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:10 am

where can i download the bard's construction kit?

sslaxx · Post by **sslaxx** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:42 am

Elder Scrolls Arena or Daggerfall, maybe?

Hacki Dragon · Post by **Hacki Dragon** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 8:19 am

If you consider the entire time span from Bard's Tale up to D2 as the "Golden Age", I think these games deserve to be in the Hall of Fame:

Bard's Tale 3 (the C64 version! The PC version sucks ass)
Ultima 4-7, Underworld 1+2
Realms of Arkania 3: Shadows over Riva
Maniac Mansion, ZakMcKracken, Monkey Island 1 (best computer game ever), 2,3, Indy 4, Day of the Tentacle, Sam & Max
Warcraft 2, Starcraft
Sim City
FIFA 98
Turrican 1,2,3 on the Amiga
Alter Ego, Giana Sisters, Last Ninja 1+2, California Games, Winter Games on the C64
Tetris

These are my personal favorite classics anyway

Trevor_Clim · Post by **Trevor_Clim** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 11:00 am

i think the golden age has rise again, when i think of Deus Ex, Jagged Alliance 2, etc... gameplay wonders!

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 11:39 am

Well of course the golden age has risen again - we all have exult

Dirty Hairy · Post by **Dirty Hairy** » Sun Dec 15, 2002 3:33 pm

Not to forget Star Control II by Accolady and Betrayal at Krondor by Dynamix - two really great games...

MV · Post by MV » Sun Dec 15, 2002 9:51 pm

Jiles, Yes, the credits also go to those companies. Especially Black Isle Studios.

I really think that Doom3 will start another Age. It's in typical style of what Origin used to do (Release a game that requires next gen hardware), and the fact that people are complaining that multi player is limited to 4 players has me happy too. Multiplayer oriented FPS with some gimmick is just so boring now. It all went downhill from halflife.

Stuart · Post by **Stuart** » Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:11 pm

Mmmm, Doom III does look good. It's specs must be rather frighteningly high, though.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:49 am

Note that the "golden age" of software was all about gameplay and conceptual innovations. Why? Because more or less graphic stagnated for years. In, like, four years - the manufacturers just provided cards that were slightly faster, or displaying brighter colors, but basically the resolution was stuck to VGA. There wasn't a run to better graphics, to "let's make it real-looking". So the challenge was to "fit" into that 320x200 pixels, 256 colors and nothing else, something innovative.

The classic example is in soccer games. Once, a soccer game was better than another because it had better gameplay, because it was innovative in some way (it allowed to build a stadium, to manage training, it simulated the players market...). Now a soccer game is better than another /if it has better graphics/ (it has smoother animations, recognizable visages, etc.). It's that easy: a new graphic card emerges, and the same games are re-made again and again with almost nothing
new, except for the graphics that can be pumped more and more due to the increased card features/speed.

So, I fear that a "golden age" is unlikely to return. We should do something "a là fight club" and blow up ATI and Nvidia headquarters

Post by **drcode** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:41 am

I'm not so sure. People used to think that movies and TV would make books irrelevant, but that hasn't happened. While I don't see a return to poor-quality graphics, I think the main reason we don't see plot-driven games is because the big companies and distributors don't see enough money in them. My hope is that as more cheap or free engines become available, smaller groups will be able to do original games without such huge development costs.

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 10:41 am

Nice idea

But please wait until Geforce FX is released, thats the baby I want real innovative games to be made on..

Why does everbody have that high expectations about Doom3? I never really liked any of the ID games, I think they all were real boring. Just the engine was always nice. What I have seen of D3(and I saw and played the not really legal demo) really wasnt that great. It looks cool, no question, but other than that there is NOTHING. And as I understand it, Carmack just wants to frighten the player with shock-effects and sounds. Thats real cheap I think, its a hundred times more frightening when you go into Alagners house and the guardian starts to laugh and you realize how you have been played with.

Back to topic.
You say there was an golden age, where great games rained from the sky and you just had to buy any given game to get one megahit. But think of it, those games you all mentioned were released in a timeframe of about 10 years. I dont think there was not an equal number of at least that great games in the last ten years. I remember many real bad games I played on the C64, their numbers were real great to be honest ... Today its no difference, although games have become more timeconsuming in development, I think that is only because standards grew. Sure Monkey Island, Zak Mc Cracken, that were the best Adventure games ever(I remember playing Zak until sometime in the morning sitting in front of our big TV in the living room..

), but how many Adventure games are there today? Lucasfilm/arts had one great idea (engine-wise) and some very creative story writer. Today there is no market for that kind of games. But i.e. Bioware & BlackIsle created some great stories using one engine. Its just another genre. And there are many examples.

I think standards have become real high compared to the 80ies.
Computer games have grown up. And I think they will get even better. But when I speak of them, I mean those games which are really brillant. Games people will speak about in 10 or more years and say, THAT were real great games. Perhaps I stand alone with that opinion but when I see games like Torment or Deus Ex I cannot believe people claim they are nothing compared to games like Monkey Island or Turrican(I loved Turrican, had it only on a cassette...real long loadtimes

)

Please dont flame me for bad english, just for my opinion!

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:04 pm

Style vs Substance - the question is whether or not the graphical advances are being used to improve the game play, or just pretty graphics inorder to cover up the fact that nothing has changed.

Example 1: what would be the difference between a Final Fantasy 10 writen with the Final Fantasy 10 engine and one writen with the Final Fantasy 3/6 engine.
One would be prettier than the other, threre wouldn't be anychange in the game play or the enjoyablity level of the game. (yeah i know its not fair that im using a consol game as an example)

Example 2: what would be the difference between an Ultima 7 writen with the Ultima7 engine and one written with the Ultima 5 engine.
You would end up with radically different games because as we all know up though ultima 7 the technology helped to push the story and improve the game play (yeah i know its not fair to use an ultima example)

And by the way your right there were a lot of crappy games back in the 80's we just didn't play them long enough to remeber them the way we remeber the good ones

Jiles · Post by **Jiles** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:41 am

I think there is the destinct possibility that we may see some decent RÖELEPLAYEINGE games in the next year or so. Games that, OMG!!11, actually have a decent storyline.

SW:KOTOR sounds very interesting, but after the awful SP of NWN, I have some doubts about whether BioWare can pull it off. I feel they have redeemed themselves somewhat with the Witches' Wake (so far).

Troika (the makers of Arcanum, and mostly responsible for Fallout) apparently have a Greyhawk D&D game in the pipeline. I quite enjoyed Arcanum. Granted, the combat sucked and the game was 'balanced' in favour of magic, but it was fun none the less.

BIS have another, possibly (likely) D&D game in the works. From the hints we've received it sounds interesting. Apparently it's low level (1-8 ish) with somewhere between Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale amounts of text and stuff. Could be good - it might represent a shift away from CRPG's that offer Ph4t l3wt and ÜBARRR munchkinsim (*cough* BGII *cough*).

On the other side of the coin you have D&D Heroes from Infogrames. This looks like a cash-in BG:DA clone. It could have a real deep story line though (*cough*).

Hopefully DX2 will be worthwhile...

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:51 am

Let me try to sum up my position again: I don't think that improved graphics are bad, that we need to be back to 320x200 pixels and 256
colors.

I think that the gaming industry is brainwashing people into thinking that graphics are the most important thing, just because graphical improvement is the cheapest process for them. It just requires a couple coders to write down a "better engine" when you've got a better card from the manufacturers. Instead, it takes scriptwriters and other non conventional figures to make a great and new story.

Isn't Ultima IX the strongest example? So I just hope (and I seriously think that it's going to happen) that the majority of people will change mind and buy games that are great in terms of story, gameplay, innovation, even if (relatively!) poor in graphics.

Why emulation and retrogames are growing stronger? Why someone feels the need to build a software like Exult? Why John Romero moved to craft a game like Hyperspace Delivery Boy (see http://rome.ro) rather than attempting at another Daikatana?

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 5:40 am

I see your point, but I think good game developers - and good games - were always a minority. And they do not really need to brainwash, there is a huge demand for high quality graphics also.

I also do not think that U9 is a fair example; the developers WANTED to make a great game with a great story and following the traditions of Origin using outstanding graphics. If you want to blame someone, then its EA who deserves to be blamed.
I always wondered what a kind of "fan" creates an inoffical patch which greatly improves a game, uses the offical patching-tool and wants to remain anonymous. They didnt like the release version either and I dont want to know what they think of EA.

I always shared your opinion, if most game consumers would buy only really good games, there would be much more really good games because there would be a market for that.

Regarding your last point, I think the most important fact here is that modern systems can emulate old systems more easily than ever.
I d'loaded my first emulator the week I had access to the internet. Now its more easier as stated above and also popular because everyone talks about it.
About Romero I can only say(I hope you dont hate me for that) that I dont think he is a good at anything he does. He made some spooky level-big deal. I assert every second amateur leveldesigner would have been able to make levels which could be compared to them given the opporunity. The first time he tried to do something really creative it became Daikatana. I played 50% through it and it was like I expected. Nothing special, though it was in development longer than Deus Ex and used an existing engine.
AfaIk Delivery Boy is just a cheap copy of Indy Desktop Adventure and Yoda Stories by LucasArts, so again no sign of creativity.
I think he does that because noone else who has a famous name wants to do it and he gets paid for it.(Remember, he sold his Ferrari ...)

To summarize it up, I think there were always great games and that wont change in a couple of years.

I really look forward to upcoming games, and one factor IS graphic. I prefer the 3D objects of Deux Ex over the 2D-sprite Medikits of DukeNukem3d and the waving grass of NWN over the pixel grass of Ultima7 (blasphemie, I know ...). It doesnt make a good game, but it does create a good atmosphere. But next to graphics there is a constant improvement in other areas; Interface, AI, storywise, ...

All opinions are subjective and you should never trust statistics to you didnt fake yourself. I loved games since I first played SuperSprint on the MZ700/800 in '83 or so and as long as games like Deus Ex are coming I keep that opinion.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 1:56 pm

"Apparently it's low level (1-8 ish) with somewhere between Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale amounts of text and stuff."

You mean Baldur's Gate?

MV · Post by MV » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:35 pm

Why does everbody have that high expectations about Doom3? I never really liked any of the ID games, I think they all were real boring. Just the engine was always nice. What I have seen of D3(and I saw and played the not really legal demo) really wasnt that great. It looks cool, no question, but other than that there is NOTHING. And as I understand it, Carmack just wants to frighten the player with shock-effects and sounds.

After playing the alpha myself, I have expectations. It was only a fraction of a fraction of what it's going to be.

I for one loved the scripted events like looking in the mirror and seeing that thing come back to get you in the bathroom. And the undead marines with the chaincannons lurking in wait. And it was almost SS when you enter the comm room and see the soldier amble on past outside the room. That really gave the feeling you were all alone and in the deep sh!t.

Also the lighting of the fluro as it swung back and forth. It's brilliant. I just stood there looking at it for ages. The shadows moving perfectly. I hope they make this game co-op in multiplay. That would be sweet.

Post by **Colourless** » Wed Dec 18, 2002 10:59 pm

Doom 3 will not have Coop multiplay.

farina00 · Post by **farina00** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:24 am

What's that? I never heard about such a "fan-made" patch.
Since I didn't like Ultima IX at all, yet I enjoyed a lot modding and generally fiddling with it, where can I get it?

Post by **Dominus** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 3:37 am

www.fansforultima.com

farina00 · Post by **farina00** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:04 am

Thanks - what a resource! I am now pushing Ultima IX to it's limits on
the glory of a Radeon 9700 Pro (and still, it's slightly crunchy)

Also, looking back to this "golden age" thread, I've frozen my 3d project
in order to try to develop extremely quickly an rpg with the same script
and world (the world format is extremely flexible, almost human-readable), but "retrogame" graphics, partly taken from Ultima7 and subtly retouched

sslaxx · Post by **sslaxx** » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:29 am

Pity that BritanniaMOD for Morrowind appears to have been abandoned, looked promising. Even unfinished, though, it could still be put to good use. Hmmm...

Phil.H · Post by **Phil.H** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 4:30 am

Wow, that's just about the first time I've seen someone else who likes Jagged Alliance 2!!! Hehe, many people have the same kind of tastes it seems.

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:56 am

Zork!

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 8:01 am

P.S. Zork is a game, not a sound.
Zork stretches from zero to III and includes beyond, all in text based adventure/rpg goodness.

(PLEASE, DO NOT EVER PLAY THE NEWER ZORK GAMES! THEY SUCK! ACT LIKE THEY NEVER EXISTED!)

Kennedy · Post by **Kennedy** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:35 pm

Ah yes, Good old Zork. Though I hated "return to zork", all the text based ones were classic. I remember the days when games could fit on a SINGLE LOW DENSITY FLOPPY. Now most of them require at least a hundered or more MEGAbytes and some over 500. What I wouldn't give for a return to the days when data was readable off the cd and DIDN'T need to be installed onto the hard drive. The complete Ultima 7 and the two Underworlds were probably my favorites by far.

Post by **drcode** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:18 am

Hey, I remember when the >original< Zork didn't fit on a floppy, but was freeware running on minicomputers like a PDP8. The commercial versions of Zork, parts I-III, were a split-up of the original game. I think you can still find it (look for "dungeon") for Linux/Unix.

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:28 pm

You can also look for Zork Classics in all sorts of places if you look far enough in stores. I snagged a copy recently...

Zork Classics
It has Zork Zero, Zork I, Zork II, Zork III, Beyond Zork, Enchanter, Sorceror, Spellbreaker, and Wishbringer. Your pretty much screwed though if you want Zork Quest and Zork Quest II...

Pacific_Wing · Post by **Pacific_Wing** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:26 pm

Classic (Golden Games) Top 5

#1: Ultima 7 / 7P2 combo
#2: Fallout 2 (never played fallout 1)
#3: Privateer
#4: System Shock 2 (again, never played 1)
#5: Ultima Underworld

These are my personal top five classic games. They are all pretty in-depth games. I succeeded in becoming lost in all of them.

The top two are quite significant. ultima 7 BG was my introduction into role playing gaming. I used to spend hours upon hours going through each house and checking out each chest of drawers. Each character was so rich with detail (and character portraits to reinforce their personality.) I've spent more time on this game than any other.

I'm surprised to see no one here mention fallout or fallout 2. I only played 2, but I played it thoroughly and spent nearly as much time on it as U7. The introduction drew me in, and the game itself kept me there. I really felt like a lone rouge traveling across the scorched countryside. There was just SO much to do in this game. And again, the characters were very very rich with personality and detail.

Anyway, those are my picks.

Cheers,

-PWing

Soen · Post by **Soen** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 7:03 pm

The golden age started, peaked and ended with System Shock (the original). It was just so far ahead of everything at the time and yet was never as hugely successful as it deserved to be. I don't think there's been a game since (except maybe for the sequel and Deus Ex) which crossed the lines of genres the way it did. The graphics, sounds, physics, gameplay, plot, everything was simply way better than anything for the time. You just don't find games like that anymore.

Andrea B Previtera · Post by **Andrea B Previtera** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:27 pm

You're right. It was incredible: the atmosphere above all.
The feeling. You constantly felt chased, and yet there weren't all the
heaps of monsters that doom featured. The plot was intriguing, the
gameplay perfectly balanced. Very hard, but not impossible.
But the atmosphere, oh the atmosphere!

I seriously hope that sooner or later someone at looking glass will
release the source code, giving us the opportunity to code a GL version
of it.

Soen · Post by **Soen** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:36 pm

I'd sell my entire family and probably my neighbours too for an updated version of System Shock. The sequel was good but the orginal was just unbelievably awesome. And you're right - atmosphere just says it all. And all that customisability as well! Do I wanna play a doom clone with no puzzles, easy enemies with harder puzzles and a time limit, plot or no plot, you could tailor the gaming experience in a way that I haven't seen since.

Cheshire · Post by **Cheshire** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 8:01 pm

Hmm. Golden Age games. I think it never ended. Whenever I think it's over another great game rears it's head. Here are some of my faves.
Gonna show my age here a bit and go further afield. I've indicated which formats I've played these on. NO particular order here, folks.
1) Ultima 5 (C64 or Apple II): My fave from the series. A nice convoluted plot full of juicy goodness. Marginally more complicated and in depth than U4 but I think if I'd hit U4 first I'd prefer that. Much better than the sequels (IMO of course) as I felt the latter games sacrificed gameplay for graphics. (The "ugly" graphics from U5 gave a much bigger sense of "world" for me)
2) Super Mario 64 (N64): Shows how 3d and adventure SHOULD be combined. Kept me away from my beloved PC for weeks! Attention to detail that defies description. The moment you realise you can climb walls in a Jackie Chan jump style is a epiphany.
3) Exerion (Arcade): Shooty fun with some nice tweaks, pretty graphics for the time and Giant Neon Eagles.
4) Wasteland (C64 or PC): Awesome adventure. Going thru it again at the moment. Still has a wonderful script & feel. Layout is similar to early ultima series with a wondefully complex combat system.
5) Legend of Zelda - Ocarina of Time (N64): Another great adventure game. proving that 3D, action and adventure are not incompatible. Still heaps in there that I haven't solved. Must go back one day and get all the bottle ghosts.
6) System Shock 1 (PC): One of the few games to make me genuinely terrified. (The sequel also managed to scare me on the back of it's sound alone, which is just plain disturbed)
7) Magical Drop III (Arcade - NEO GEO): Frenetic game play here. So much repeatability too!
8) Impossible Mission (C64): "Another visitor. Stay awhile. Stay FOREVERR!"
9) Chrono Trigger (SNES): Square at their peak. Engrossing plot, amazing graphics and 12 different endings! It's one of the most enjoyable adventure games I've ever played
10) Populous (Amiga): The original god game. Play it head to head and watch the hours evaporate. Once blew 4 hours against a closeley matched friend.

Oh well. That list started out as 5 & I'm sure I've missed some. There are others I've loved as well (Bards Tale 3, Little Big Adventure, System Shock 2, Half Life) but these would be the big 10...

Phil.H · Post by **Phil.H** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:26 am

My golden age games in no particular order:

1) Ultima VII
2) JA2
3) Transport Tycoon Deluxe
4) C&C
5) Age of Empires 2... perhaps not a golden age one though... =)
6) PIRATES! Raargh
7) WC2
8) Magic Carpet
9) Rollercoaster Tycoon
10) Anno 1602!

Btw, my definition of golden age is before 1999. =) Since then there's been few games that I like... maybe Black & White or Homeworld...

Post by **drcode** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:24 pm

Since nobody else has mentioned it, I'll add "Galactic Civilization" to the list. It's the only 'sim' game I've enjoyed.

Soen · Post by **Soen** » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:49 pm

just for the record - Tales of Phantasia kicks Chronotrigger's scrawny ass in the SNES rpg category. It is the best.

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:14 am

@Andrea & Troy

There is already a remake on its way. Actually two remakes. One uses a unique engine(much like Exult; it also works fine with Underworld, because its nearly the same) and another project which rebuilds SS1 with the SS2 engine. Both look promising and are a long way down the road.
If you are interested, look at the TTLG-forum, there you'll find every kind of information. (www.ttlg.com, look at the SS2 general forum)

I personally prefer SS2, last night my girlfriend and I defeated Shodan together, was an awesome 13 hour 3rd replaying; nothing compares to cooperative games! Also I always end up having collected all too much and spent too few-I had over 900 nanites and 100 cyber-upgrades... :/
Like Serpent Isle where I always had uncounted riches at the serpent path

Now I feel tempted to add my all-time favourites (also no order):

[C64] Turrican 1 on Datasette-Chris Hülsbeck rocked and still does(RogueLeader)
[C64] Zak Mc Cracken-first game which kept me up until 4 o'clock in the morning
[GB] Final Fantasy Legend II - I must have played through for a dozen times..
[Amiga] Battle Isle
[SNES] Secret of Mana- One of the best coopgames and Action RPGs ever
[PC]
All XWing games
All Dark Forces games
Every game related to Origin, LGS, Black Isle or Warren Spector

Just my 2 €-Cent

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:34 am

just for the record - Tales of Phantasia kicks Chronotrigger's scrawny ass in the SNES rpg category. It is the best.

At first I dismissed your comment as irrelevant, coming from someone with a very different opinion of a good game than I have (no I don't have a list for this thread sorry). Chrono Trigger was one of my favorites.
But I never played Tales of Phantasia, so I decided to give it a try. This has turned out to be a really great game! I'm only to Dhaos' Castle so far. I just wanted to thank you for mentioning it. (even if you don't like CT ^_^)

Soen · Post by **Soen** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 7:12 pm

I don't dislike CT, its not a bad rpg all things considered (despite the crap combat system and static enemy placement). Chrono Trigger is just so much better.