ok ok

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:04 am

since im no longer allowed to reply in that other thread, i must make a new one to ask one final question, and ive thoroughly read the FAQ this time, if ultima7 is no longer being sold, how in the hell does one go about obtaining it legally? please enlighten me because i cannot find it for sale ANYWHERE and i do not possess a time travelling device.

(if youre going to ban me from your forum for continuing the discussion about this, atleast answer the question before hand)

Gunnar · Post by **Gunnar** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:11 am

Search eBay.

And I think they can close this topic now.

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:21 am

thats all???

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:45 am

unbelievable how simple the answer is, right? And we even give it in the FAQ.
On first glance I found a SI-box, two U9 Dragon Editions that include the Ultima Collection, a complete Ultima 7.
I think there never was time you couldn't find U7 on ebay.

What am I supposed to do now with you? YOu obviously don't own a legit copy of U7...

Robert · Post by **Robert** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:40 am

of course, Ultima Collection is still being sold at many electronics stores, in a 2-pack with a command and conquer game, IIRC.

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:45 am

infact i do, i have the original floppy disks somewhere collecting dust, and recently found a Complete Ultima7 BG cd at my stepdads house which i currently use. my personal opinion: i would not and WILL NOT pay $7(the price i found on Ebay) plus S&H, plus 2 weeks for delivery, all for a DOS game, not win3.1, not win95, just a DOS game from the early 90's, that has been long since drained of all monetary value to origin. i say: to hell with copyrights, they wont be seeing a single penny from ebay, me, or the person selling the game on ebay. i do however respect your values on not wanting to intimidate the guy upstairs (EA Games) sorry for this misunderstanding.

Thepal · Post by **Thepal** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 2:54 am

You won't pay money for "just a DOS game from the early 90's"? If it is so pathetic and old and horrible and unworthy of your money, why even get it?

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:14 am

not pathetic, not horrible, just old.... worthy of money, yes, but not anymore.. in today's world this type of game is obsolete.. would you pay for a 10 year old can of coke? a 10 year old light bulb? how about a 10 year old tube of tooth paste? once again thats just my take on it, sorry if my moral values conflict with anyone else's

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:37 am

why all the fuss then? Move along, there is nothing to see here

Thief · Post by **Thief** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:33 am

As a matter of fact, the older, the more valuable (for collection, at least).

But I wonder how moral is to sell an used game. Specially above the original price. Nintendo's biggest problem, for example, are the used games selling and renting. It comes first in that list, above piracy, for example. I confess that only when I read that article, I thought about it for the first time.

Plus, eBay is not a good choice for international players.

I wonder if EA was asked about the subject, would they declare U7 freeware?

Fortunately I got my copy when I bought my 4x CD-ROM years ago (the fastest CDROM on earth! At the time...). It offered a CD called "EA Compilation". It offered U7, among Savage Empire (also an ultima game), Space Hulk, Seven Cities of Gold and others...

Unfortuantely, it doesn't have the add-ons.

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:54 am

- Morally it is fine to sell a used game. That the game companies have problems with it is their problem. People are not doing something wrong, neither legally nor morally.

- eBay works fine internationally, speaking from experience. I bought a lot of (even rare) Ultima games from eBay

- EA does not talk to us lowly people. They are very protective about their goods. people have tried to contact them about various ultima stuff (including the Exult team) and never got a reply.

- no add-ons? That sucks

Patrick Elliot · Post by **Patrick Elliot** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 10:15 am

The real problem is that every bloody company seems to now be having problems with fair use (which involves not just making backup copies, but giving away, reselling, etc.). We really need to convince idiots like Senator Hatch and the like that are stampeding over common sense to stop or get rid of them. If we don't, one of these days most fair use rights will be gone, half the technology that could have been developed will be illegal (never mind its legitimate uses) and we'll see some book publishers deciding that they should now have unique barcodes in every book and require each one to be registered to a specific person and adress. Welcome to the 21st century, where companies haven't a clue how to deal with the new world and even, as one article one Wired News (I think it was) implies, have begun hiring their own secret police to track down and help the local cops arrest anyone they think is a threat. Though apparently they are only doing that in Europe so far.

Time to break out all the old Cyberpunk and Shadowrun stuff, the moment power landed in our hands, instead of theirs, the transition to such a world by the corporations started. Sadly fear motivates restriction, not innovation. But I have to agree, at least for now EA or anyone else's indignation at people selling/renting old games is their problem, not ours.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:36 pm

This is going off-topic now (but is that really bad, considering the topic?), but why is "Nintendo's biggest problem, for example, are the used games selling and renting?" I still buy old cartridges. And above "piracy"? Even if Nintendo thinks the two practices are equal, they have gone to the extremes above even what Patrick Elliot brings up.
I confess I've never seen this article you refer to, Thief.

> Time to break out all the old Cyberpunk and Shadowrun stuff
You realize this means a quarter of the population will transform into creatures of legend? I call Decker Elf!

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:15 pm

Look, GRandma. The issue is not if U7 is being sold or not. The problem is the copyrights last more than 70 years. Everyone is forbidden from duplicating and/or redistributing copyrighted works without the proper consent from the owner of that copyright, regardless if the owner is currently making a profit with it or not. EA has NEVER EVER given ANYONE the consent to redistribute copies of U7, so it is illegal to get it from warez sites or any other medium produced by someone other than EA without consent.

Unfortunately that's the law. The Exult team will not dispute the law, and the policies of Sourceforge prohibit them from encouraging the use of pirated copies, or "abandonware" as some morons prefer to call them.

http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_d ... group_id=1

Be sure to carefully read terms 2, 5, 6, 12, 19 and 22. Term 5 is the one regarding the encouragement of using pirated copies.

And please quit disputing this and encouraging the use of pirated copies, or you will certanly be banned from this forum. The policy is: No pirated copies/abandonwarez/whatever-you-call-them. Period.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 5:26 pm

And no matter how old U7 is, that does not reduce it's net value.

And for $8.95 plus shipping and handling, you can buy an EA Compilation CD like the one Thief talked about. It includes Black Gate, Savage Empire, Underworld I and another 7 games. Go here:

http://www.cdaccess.com/html/quick/eacomppj.htm

Post by **drcode** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:51 pm

Not bad. I'd point out that Underworld I is one of the best games ever made. And Savage Empire hasn't been available in any form in many years.

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Mon Aug 30, 2004 11:39 pm

wow... those sites i referred to sure were convincing about the whole "abandonware" thing.... *dunce*

Post by **Dominus** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 12:36 am

oh come one, how naive are you?
those sites need to justify their pirating to themselves. I do agree that morally copyright laws are in some areas just plain wrong. But if you break the law it doesn't matter much what YOU or I think of it. To change this you have to influence the politicians and not stir up a stink on the exult forum.
Look it up in the lawbooks of your country and show me where abandonware is defined.

Bomb Bloke · Post by **Bomb Bloke** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:59 pm

Abandonware is the term used for software that has not been sold commercially *at all* for the last five (I think) years.

It is not legal. Underdogs seem to be the authority on the subject, and that's what they say. They also make a point of not hosting files if they believe there is any way to obtain the files commercially.

The term Abandonware only exists to note software which is illegal to distribute, but would cause no harm to any company if it WERE to be distributed. That is to say, Abandonware should not cost any company loss of sales, it's just a way to keep old software in the loop, as such. That doesn't make it legal, however.

Many places are very loose as to what they term Abandonware, however, and simply decide that if software is old, therefore it won't be sold anymore. Other sites tend to try and hunt down companies for permission.

Ultima games have been available recently enough that downloads don't count as Abandonware. They classify as Warez. Both Abandonware and Warez are illegal, but Warez is classified as morally incorrect as well - it's basic piracy.

Given all this, and the fact that Ultima VII is one of the best RPG games to date, I think $7 + postage and handling is more then reasonable.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:01 pm

Convincing?

Just as convincing as the guy from the Bonsai Kitten web site. That's a classic web hoax.

http://bonsaikitten.chaos.org/

If you read it thoroughly and use common sense, you will conclude that it is a hoax. It is simply impossible that a poor cat squeezed into a bottle and with its anus sealed with superglue would stay healthy for long; it will certainly die in a couple weeks. There was an investigation about this, and led to the discovery of the web site author: a student from MIT who wanted to see how many idiots would believe such crap. You can read about it here:

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/bonsai.htm
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/bonsai.html
http://www.hsus.org/ace/14130

You are just the same as the people who believed the bonsai kitten. You believed the absolutely unfounded crap told by someone you don't even know. Yes, unfounded, because they never cite any believable bibliography or reference to support their claims. The world is full of liars.

Bomb Bloke · Post by **Bomb Bloke** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:24 pm

(Is he talking about me? I guess not...)

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:27 pm

No, I am talking about GRandma

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 1:58 am

theres a difference between not knowing the truth, and believing a lie

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:13 am

and there is also knowing the truth but choosing to believe a lie

RED FRED · Post by **RED FRED** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:08 am

i have a link to a site taht has it

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:29 am

Yes, there is a difference between knowing the truth and believing a lie. You believed a lie

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:36 am

I mean, between not knowing the truth and believing a lie.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:18 am

Hey, RED FRED, you mean a site that has U7? Did you even read this forum's rules? The thread you opened the other day was frozen for a reason.

Post by **wjp** » Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:47 am

I think this has gone on long enough...

iareth · Post by **iareth** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:29 pm

I'd like to clarify one thing.

Originally written by Bomb Bloke:
"[...]Abandonware should not cost any company loss of sales[...]"

True, it should not, but in effect it impacts on any possible future reissues. In effect this means that abandonware reduces the chance that games that have been distributed freely, albeit illegally, will ever be upgraded for modern systems and rereleased. Most of those who would be willing to purchase it have already downloaded it thus making the reissue less lucrative.

However, things aren't quite that simple. As every vintage game collector knows, any magnetic media is subject to degrading over time. This means that even though you would legally own the software, abandonware could well be the only available option to obtain a replacement for damaged media. While the legality in such cases is still open to dispute and may vary from country to country, software companies can also be perceived as being unable to fulfill their contract to provide end user support, which the legimate owner is entitled to. Therefore the point of game companies 'abandoning' their ownership to the title as they cease to support it can be considered valid and such argument can be founded legally to some degree.

That being said, I concur that the issue of abandonware is a little out of place here as to my knowledge EA still supports Ultima Collection. The only Ultima games that could be considered 'abandoned' without dispute would be Vic 20's Ultima: Escape from Mt. Drash. It would be safe to say that title will never ever be commercially reissued and currently the software's survival is solely up to private individuals, not Sierra (who, I suspect, have even lost the master tapes for it ages ago).

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:29 pm

it doesnt matter, people will always find a cheap or free way to obtain things worth money, it cant exactly be stopped either.

Bomb Bloke · Post by **Bomb Bloke** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:22 pm

That doesn't mean they should be able to justify it.

Patrick Elliot · Post by **Patrick Elliot** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:22 am

Well. I find companies have several methods of dealing with old games:

1. Release 2-3 unaltered (more or less), but able to run on new hardware, then ignore the screams of annoyance when it costs $50 to buy them and no others are released.

2. Update them to a new design, but place it as low priority, where the result is absolute garbage.

3. Don't even plan on updating or re-releasing, then scream and cry when people 'steal' the games.

The first is pure idiocy, especially when someone else comes out with something like MAME that 'could', if the companies themselves had done it, let them sell the old games at 50 cents a pop and made money, but where they instead completely rewrite the code to make it 'friendly' to only say Windows. The second totally stupid, lame and insulting to anyone that ever played it. And for the third... they may have the 'legal' grounds, but only a complete idiot actually believes the company should be justified in to telling people, "you can't do that", when people want the product, instead of, "Ok, but you had better start paying 'us' for the roms." That is a bit like Farrari deciding to start making bicycles and ignoring the huge crowd of people outside the corporate office telling them they want a car. It is just flat out stupid.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:42 am

> That doesn't mean they should be able to justify it.

Why not? Freedom of speech. You just don't need to justify it here, since it's against the rules. (and off topic, but if I may continue with one more comment please ...)

>That is a bit like Farrari deciding to start making bicycles and ignoring the
> huge crowd of people outside the corporate office telling them they want
> a car. It is just flat out stupid.

Well, it would be if they also said "we are no longer selling cars, and no-one is allowed to resell used Farrari's".

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:03 am

This is the information era. Things are more difficult to compare with other things since software products can be replicated without much effort. This is not about reselling, but more of the ability to replicate a product, spending almost no money in that action.

It is more related to ideas, cooking recipes and such things that can be easily transmitted by word of mouth. The author invested time and money in coming up with it, and the cost of transmitting that knowledge/information to another is insignificant, so insignificant that once it comes out of the author's mouth, those who hear it can easlly spread it to the rest of the world without spending a single buck on the distribution, and without generating any revenue to the original author.

Simply, this is something the laws are not yet prepared for. Do not ever compare them with material things like cars.

corbomite dragon · Post by **corbomite dragon** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:22 am

Off topic, but who the heck would use a screen name like GRandma?

You've all been thinking it yourself, you were just too polite to ask.

Dupre · Post by **Dupre** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:29 pm

terok00001 · Post by **terok00001** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:06 pm

i use it as my name on ultima, because i think its pretty funny that an avatar named grandma is taking over britannia

Patrick Elliot · Post by **Patrick Elliot** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:52 pm

> Simply, this is something the laws are not yet prepared for.
> Do not ever compare them with material things like cars.

Unfortunately, we have seen the trend of what happens when you start protecting 'ideas' instead of products with the slew of software patents coming out for everything short of a specific way to wipe your.... nose. I don't think it is possible to protect something so easilly replicatable, without derailing and destroying significant amounts of innovation. Or at least not using any traditional business model. Yes, it shouldn't be compared to real, solid, work intensive, physical objects like cars, but sadly, that is how the companies look at software. You may as well try to place a sofware patent on fog and try to sue the nearest ocean for infringement. The grounds for the patent in many cases is just as questionable and the resulting product that 'may in theory' result equally intangible.

Anyway, the whole thing is a major mess, and short of a major philosophical change from everyone involved, appears to only be getting increasingly insane.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:46 pm

Patents are just a total mess. Patents deal with a particular way things are done. It is like patenting sentences like "The white horse runs fast". Now everyone would have to pay royalties for using sentences like "An old sewer smells bad" or "A green apple tastes good". That is even more complicated.

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:37 am

Why isn't RED FRED banned yet? Or is he?

Patrick Elliot · Post by **Patrick Elliot** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:30 am

Actually, it occured to me yesterday after I logged off that it is worse than that. I seem to remember MS patenting something with hand held devices for using a single button click to access something... Can't remember the specifics though. So... Lets ay MS patents using one button to access email on a handheld device (this may have been the patent they have, I can't remember). Then say I write Java or some other platform independent program which lets me use a single key on the keyboard to open my email. Then someone else takes their handheld device running a version of Linux or something and uploads my program to the handheld, which just happens to have the same key on it (either it has a keyboard, or pure chance maps a key it does have maps to the same code). Ooops! I just violated someone's stupid patent anyway. My 'intent' was to make a platform independent program that can be used anywhere, but it infringes on the MS patent for use on a handheld. I suppose I 'might' be lucky and since it isn't designed 'spefically' for handhelds I would be safe, but how long is it going to be before the only difference between your handheld and your laptop/desktop machine is only the size of the case and how much you can expand the features? All it takes is someone making one with an identical processor to a PC machine and able to run identical software.

Total mess is an understatement.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:46 am

Yes, you are right, it can go worse.

And the MS patent is about the device responding differently according to the number of clicks and delay between them. For example, if you single click a text file, it opens in the editor; if you double-click, it prints; if you triple click, a mail client opens and attaches it to a new outgoing mail. Something like that.

Bomb Bloke · Post by **Bomb Bloke** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:00 pm

That also seems a bit ridiculous. No, scrap that, it IS ridiculous.

Besides, the first click should select the file. I hate that stupid 'web-page mode' that makes all the files open if you so much as look at them... >:(