[Half OT] Ascension data

[Andrea B Previtera]

I was wondering if someone managed to decode the Ascension 3d models data. That would be a huge repository of 3d objects both I and Sam may use. I've seen tools to extract textures and sound (the sound is TERRIBLE) already, but nothing for the models...

[Dominus]

you do realize, that you are already on thin ice with the U7-graphics? Not meant to discourage you but the art IS copyrighted.

Edit: but it sure would be cool to have the models in Exult3D

[Andrea B Previtera]

Of course I know that those graphics are copyrighted but... well, if I am on thin ice, you're deep into the frozen lake! Maybe it doesn't make much difference but I am using re-worked graphics while yours are fresh from U7 as they are.

Now, you never had problems with EA, right? After all Exult is well known. Someone at EA knows about Exult for sure, but legally threatening you about it would be plain ridiculous, and it won't happen - I am sure.

[Andrea B Previtera]

ps: I am thinking about ascension data for Exult 3d simply because the number of u7 items is really huge. Just think of, what can I say, a *spatula*. It's one of those items (for it's uniqueness) which would discourage me from embarking into the quest of modeling in 3d *all* the u7 stuff.

[1010101]

So long as no one ever distributes the models, it should never even come up. The install process for Exult3D (or Andrea's project, for that matter), could simply ask for the installation path of Ascension and either convert the models at runtime (unlikely) or as part of the installation process.

You never distribute the material; you only require that the user own said material. It's really not any different than the way Exult works now.

[SB-X]

In other words, Exult doesn't include any graphics from U7.

[Andrea B Previtera]

Right! I forgot about that. Ooooops

[Andrea B Previtera]

But thinking again, about the Ascension models:

it's really subtle, but while 2d graphics are quite unique, who can tell that the 24 vertices bottle I made isn't the same of Ascension? When you're dealing with low poly geometries, all things look like the same, expecially if the polycount is *really* low. So I could easily create a can of coke which looks exactly like the one used in doom3, and put it into my game: would I be violating a copyright?

[1010101]

One identical low-poly model is one thing, but if you end up with multiple identical models, you'd have a hard time defending it. Of course, I don't know how the law looks at such things.

[drcode]

Maybe it works like literature. If you lived on an island, and could prove that you never read Jurassic Park, and you happened to write a book that was word-for-word the same as Jurassic Park, you technically would be okay. But if you started with Jurassic Park, and changed every single word, you'd be violating the copyright.

So... I'd say that if you're looking at Ascension graphics while creating your own, you might be in trouble. But if you use, say, a bottle from your house as a model, and the result happens to look about the same as Ascension's, you'd be okay. Maybe it would help to keep a journal, but I'm just guessing.

[Dominus]

So I could easily create a can of coke which looks exactly like the one used in doom3, and put it into my game: would I be violating a copyright?

Sure, Coca Cola's (or whatever coke flavour you gonna use).

[TelCor]

Quote, "
Quote:

So I could easily create a can of coke which looks exactly like the one used in doom3, and put it into my game: would I be violating a copyright?


Sure, Coca Cola's (or whatever coke flavour you gonna use)."

No, you would be violating a trademark, quite different than a copyright. Err, acutally it's probably both. The art work is copyrighted, the distinctive shapes of the logos are trademarked. Silly and convoluted it is.

Quickie:
Copyrights are automatic (create an original work, it's automatically copyrighted (well, at least in the USA))
Trademarks must be applied for, registered and maintained (pay a fee every year, police the universe for infringement, etc)

[smatthews]

All models have to be tweaked to be usable, especially when you are trying to use them in a preexisting engine (Exult). For Exult3D, aligning new 3D models with their 2D counterparts is a very delicate task, and couldn't be automated.

-Sam

[Ethan]

As a preface, I am speaking as someone with some legal knowledge and experience, but none as to the creation of computer graphics models, etc. I am not an attorney.

It seems to me that changing the graphical content of a game (i.e. changing Ultima 7 into Ultima 7 3D), but still operating in the same manner as Exult does (making the game playable on modern PCs), would fall under "fair use" in the United States.

Without getting into unneccesary analysis, assuming Exult3D would operate similarly to Exult, requiring ownership of the game, no harm would be done, and no copyright violated.

Using Ascention models would probably also constitute fair use, because you are using them to create an entirely new game. This is similar to the idea that someone can replicate an Ultima game as a mod for say, Neverwinter Nights, and not be violating copyrights.


~E

[Dominus]

These are completely different issues.
Exult only provides the engine that is useless without the original files. We don't provide the original files. If anyone would try to make a stink about the Mt-32 files we provide then the answer is quite clear: The original only passes commands to the Mt-32, so recordings of the music played on the device are hard to make a stink about.
Same with Exult3D. It only renders the original files completely different and replaces some objects with 3Dmodels.

Now extracting the u9 models, editing them to make them compatible with Exult3D or any other 3D-engine and then offering them for download, is something I wouldn't do without advice from an attorney.

[Using Ascention models would probably also constitute fair use, because you are using them to create an entirely new game. This is similar to the idea that someone can replicate an Ultima game as a mod for say, Neverwinter Nights, and not be violating copyrights.[/quote]
Only because EA didn't enforce their copyright yet, doesn't make it legal. Peroxide's Ultima 1 recreation "died" because of this. They decided to rather develope a game influenced by Ultima then recreate a U1 and risk a long court battle with EA (rather condensed view of their decision and I don't say I remember it correctly).

[Jammet]

Exult doesn't come with all that data, it just takes it from the U7 game.

Now I think what the person above there meant was that he'd like the same to apply with U9 models or whatever. Optinally being able to add objects from that game if you happen to own it. Kind of like the difference between the old freecraft engine with or without the Warcraft original graphics and sound.

To make all this workable you'd probably have to create both an extraction/conversion tool, and patches for the extracted data to apply changes to them so they blend in fine into Exult 3D. Providing a patch probably wouldn't be a problem.