What do I DL?

[Mustang]

Yay! improved graphics for black gate!
But what do I download?

[Gradilla Dragon]

If you are so clueless, I assume you are using MS Windows. Download the Windows (95/98/ME/NT/2000/XP) Binary.

Once you have that, download the sound pack for each game you have and read the Documentation. You only need one sound pack per game. The Roland MT-32 sound packs sound different than the "normal" ones.

[Mustang]

HEy dont call me clueless there were just so many files there

[Gradilla Dragon]

Having no clue of what to download is being clueless for that matter

[Colourless]

Keep it civil and nice please. No need to insult people.

[Gradilla Dragon]

Is the word "clueless" an insult? I don't see why it would be. Maybe if some native english speaker cares to give an explanation of why is it an insult...

[Alun Bestor]

There's nothing to explain, it just *is* insulting. Even for a non-native English speaker, you must be particularly clueless not to know that

In any case, it's genuinely confusing what files need to be downloaded, and I don't see why this confusion should be limited to Windows users. (what, Linux users come with an innate knowledge of how Exult works, even if they've never heard of the project before?) I think the downloads page ought to be rearranged a little to make it clear which files are necessary (in a big box at the top: "For First-Time Users").

For that matter, I'm not sure I see the point of continuing to have links for the Soundblaster sound packs. They're inferior to the MT-32 ones, not significantly smaller, and just confuse matters even more.

[Gradilla Dragon]

Yes, I am clueless as to why it is insulting, and don't feel insulted when someone calls me that. If that's the case, then there is a need for explanation, regardless of what you think.

And I assumed this person was in Windows because he didn't give any details on what system he has or anything that may help us on helping him, not because he didn't know what to download. He had no clue on how to ask for help.

And I agree, the downloads section should be changed to be more newbie-friendly.

[Alun Bestor]

Not to mention that there have been two recent posts asking why there are no sound effects.
I think the heading "Additional data files (not required)" really isn't helping, given a) most if not all users would consider sound effects to be required, b) those are all exclusively *sound* files, not plain-old-data, which might cause people to overlook that section, and c) they're *below* ancient releases.

If the Exult team happen to want a new, friendlier website, I'm a web designer with some free time and a generous heart

[Alun Bestor]

Calling someone clueless is browbeating, because the word implies that they're an idiot for not having sought out the clue - contrast with 'uninformed', which is a much more neutral word that doesn't imply that. Exactly why 'clueless' got these connotations is a chicken-and-egg thing: it's insulting because it's used to insult, and it's used to insult because it's insulting.

That's just the way it is. If you're not insulted when you get called clueless you ought to be, same as if someone calls you sh*thead even if your head is not, technically, composed of sh*t

[Gradilla Dragon]

Dictionary definition:
===
clue
n. Something that serves to guide or direct in the solution of a problem or mystery.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

---
clueless

adj : totally uninformed about what is going on; not having even a clue from which to infer what is occurring.

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
===

It does not imply more than what is there. Don't make up any more definitions, please. I do not find your explanations as valid because they lack a solid foundation. I won't ever feel insulted when called clueless because having no clue is something that happens to everyone everyday. We are not all-knowing nor perfect.

[Andrea B Previtera]

Well, calling someone an "ignorant" is generally considered offensive, yet the definition of "ignorant" is more or less the same as "clueless":

someone who ignores something.

So are those both offensive?
None of the two is?
And how is this in-topic with Exult or Ultima7?

[Alun Bestor]

Dude...I'm not going to get into a flamewar about this. I'm not redefining words, I'm telling you what connotations they carry for native English speakers. The fact that the dictionary.com definition does not elaborate on these connotations does not deny that they are there - most dictionaries avoid delving into what makes some words diplomatic and others insulting simply so that they're not 10 times longer than they need to be.

Having no clue is indeed a common and forgivable case of affairs, but 'clueless' is not a neutral or friendly or forgiving word with which to inform someone of this fact. So far, three people have told you that your comment was insulting; I feel this should be all the foundation you need. You're welcome to not get insulted by being called clueless, but don't expect anybody else to feel the same way when *you* call them that.

[dag]

> For that matter, I'm not sure I see the point of continuing to have links
> for the Soundblaster sound packs. They're inferior to the MT-32 ones, not
> significantly smaller, and just confuse matters even more.

Well, that depends. I prefer the soundblaster sounds (which are actually
adlib fm synths), because I got used to them many years ago. AND they do
their job very good, oftentimes better than the roland sounds. This is
because the developers did a very good job in optimizing.
But this is my personal opinion; sound impression is still a very subjective
issue.

[Alun Bestor]

Well, you do have a point there. Personally I started out with the MT-32 sound effects back in the day, so they get me more nostalgic, but I understand the personal taste aspect.

Thing is though, I doubt most other players care the same way - especially since to confirm that personal taste you'd need to download both packs and compare them! If sourceforge is fine with the bandwidth hit of hosting both packs then great, but if the downloads page were rearranged then I think the MT-32 packs should be grouped together with the necessary files and the SB packs listed further down.

How do people feel about directing newbies to download the OGGs? They're a big download, but I think it saves untold aggravation trying to get the GM synth working properly (Especially since it's so damn hard to find an MT-32-sounding soundfont!) On the other hand, the FM synth music works straight out of the box and is nice enough, and probably carries more nostalgia-value.

By the way...since both voices and FM synth music play fine with the original game files, and since the SB sound effects were FM synth, why is it that people need to download a sound pack to get sound effects? The FAQ doesn't say anything about this.

[Dominus]

1. renaming the downloads is tricky. If we don't say that those are not required then people will download them and not know what to do with them. Point is people don't read anything we write in the docs and the download page (excuse me if you read all of that, you are not included in the general, loose group of people, I mean). No matter what we do, people will still ask first then read. If anyone has a foolproof idea, I'm all for it.
2. clueless: lets debate how to achieve worldpeace and not this (well, better not debate anything not related to Exult/U7)
3. Playing the sfx through Midi is not possible (not easily at least). We took that option off Exult ages ago, because it just would never sound right, no matter the soundfont and thus proofed to be a support nightmare.
4. SFX in U7 was not in files but commands, embedded in the main u7 exe (I think so, culd be wrong). We just can't extract those and make it work, thus the SFX, both for MT-32 and FMSynth needed to be recorded. Also remember that FMsynth became an option much later in Exult's development.
5. I like music from the MT-32 recorded files and sfx from the FMSynth recordings (as if that matters to anyone )

[Andrea B Previtera]

> 1.If anyone has a foolproof idea, I'm all for it.

Judging on the various requests I've been seeing in the years,
I think that people goes directly to the download section as soon as they understand what exactly exult is. Given this, and the obvious fact that *no one* likes to play mute games, probably the SFX pack shouldn't be separate, but part of the main installation. Also, there are a few things which the installer could easily autoconfig: U7 and SI paths, mostly - and this would shut down another good 25% of the requests. Games not found? Open a small page with two frames: one which says that U7 and SI are not shareware etc., and another which loads an ebay search for the two games.

> 2. clueless: lets debate how to achieve worldpeace

Build a time machine, travel to the past, kill mr. Benz.

[SB-X]

That text at the top about porting Exult should be at the bottom of the page.
I don't think most people know what "binary" and "source" means, in this context. These different download types should be seperated into their own tables. The binaries list just has to say to get the version for your platform. This is Exult and will work with no further download. (if you don't care about SFX)
Along with the source, you might move any Tools and ES downloads further down on the page.
Is it necessary to have "Ancient releases" on this page? As the top paragraph says, you can get older versions on the SF page.
Somewhere below the main downloads list (and probably above source code) it should be made clear that you need to "choose one of these packages for sound effects".
Game | Sound Package (each contains different sounding effects)
Black Gate | Adlib? (size) | Roland MT-32 (size)
Serpent Isle | Adlib? (size) | Roland MT-32 (size)
Special packages for Zaurus users: Black Gate | Serpent Isle
This section taken out of the current "Additional data files" section. You probably want note where to put these files and point to the docs.

The development snapshots section doesn't need to be changed.

[Alun Bestor]

I strongly agree with SB-X and Andrea's comments. It should still be possible to download the binaries and soundpacks separately, but a 'bundled' and preconfigured version with the sound pack included (pick one and make it official, don't offer a choice) would really help first-time users.

To this end, what about a prominent "For first time users:" box with a colored background at the top of the downloads page: directing users to download the bundled version for their OS (perhaps from an OS drop-down with Download button, rather than a list of links?), and with a clear link to additional install instructions (especially where you should stick your original U7 game files). Nightlies can live below that, and ancient releases could be relegated to a simple link to the SF project page.

My $0.02

[Dominus]

I agree that "ancient releases" should not really be on that page (or if then at the bottom of the download page).
I disagree on a big package.
Choosing one soundpack as the official one is just not right as both Simon Quinn and Joseph Morriss invested time and work in recording these two packs. So we'd need to put them both into the big download and that would make the 2MB of Exult 23MB bigger and that's insane.
Also then it would start with "Why is the music pack not included?" - another 22MB. Now you'd end up with 47MB. Even more insane.

BUT I think that we could add a special "Windows" package of the two sfx and the music pack. With an installer that reads the location of the Exult install from the registry, installs to the right location and makes the necessary changes to the cfg. Not sure though if the current installer can do all this. Colourless should know, though.
Also a menu options would be nice to select the SFX-pack (MT-32 or FMSynth), which would make it easy to switch but would still allow for custom made sound packs.

As for the Exult installer to automatically adjust BG and SI paths, that is quite impossible. The installer asks for the correct path to these and enters them in the cfg but there is no way to have the installer do this automatically, other than having it search for specific files. And as people tend to have insanely huge hard drives nowadays with a lot of junk on them, this could take a while. ("why is Exult installation thrashing my hard drives for hours?")

[Andrea B Previtera]

On the subject of sound packs:
The installer could display a warning window which explains that the game will be mute unless you download one of the packs. Following, three radio buttons: Download the MT32, download the FMSynth, stay silent.

On the subject of autosearch:
Well, it would just a matter of searching for a directory. Yes, people could have large disks, but how many guys have 100,000 directories? You're not looking for a file, you're just looking for a path which ends with "static".

[fliptw]

It be smarter to have a "Get Exult Now" hyperlink that links to a page with the exult binaries and the SFX packs, and a have the SFX packs use an installer, or a good blurb about how to install them.

everything else gets sent to a better organized "Extras" page.

[Dominus]

he he dirs with "static": that's BG, SI, U8, U9, Crusader: No Regret, Crusader: No Remorse on my hd
Of course you need to look for a specific file in those to match the correct one

Just having Total Commander search for the dir "static" on my d: drive takes quite long. Longer than edititing this post twice.