Play balance in U7/SI/FoV/SS

[Daemongar]

I was reading a thread on how boring U7/SI gets half way through becuase of lack of challenges - the party all has magic plate or whatever and items and was thinking on ways to balance the game.

I think the biggest problem is with FoV and SS - they were designed to sell add-on product, but the power they gave to the are way too upsetting to game balance. If I could do away with a couple things it would be:

* The ring of reagents - diminishes need for reagents
* The damage output of the black sword (the sword itself is cool and fun, but overpowering in damage) - makes avatar one dimensional.
* The abundance of magic armor in both games - and make it so no creature drops plate anything - should be found or bought.
* The chalace with the endless food/water is SI/SS- diminishes need for food
* The 60 strength from FoV - after FoV, the avatar doesn't have to train, removing another aspect from the game.
* The gloves of quickness in SS
* The axe in SS
* The armor ability of serpent armor had no need to be more powerful than regular plate - should be the same as regular plate or antique armor. Also, no enemies should drop plate or magic armor.
* The Golden Ankh you get for free when starting U7/FoV - those things cost 600 gp - make the Avatar hustle for his money
* 50 gp per vial of serpent venom is too much - run to Monoc, talk to gypsie, run to mine, get 16 or so vials of venom, die, run to Briannia, get 800 gp. Brownie's pumpkins are rotting in the fields, the avatar is so rich!

I might even be inclined to get rid of the magic carpet, too. The first thing I do is run to that thing and stock up throughout the continents. SI with the jawbone had it right - that was perfectly executed to allow players access to places as they play.

I'm not saying everyone is going to agree with me, or that I can't just play the game without using these items, but it would be nice to play the chips as they fall, worrying about reagents/food/training and other things as I wander through my game.

[Colourless]

Re serpent venom: If you enjoy being a drug running avatar, well why would you have a problem with how much you get.

[Dominus]

I don't quite understand the problem.
All these things don't need to be done (except for the power boost when finishing FoV) or taken. Or at least you can stockpile them somewhere and not use them.

[Daemongar]

I guess what I am saying is that somewhere up front in U7/FOV battle and money are no longer an issue. In SI/SS, very quickly battle, food, reagents, and money are no longer a problem. I don't think I died once after SS in all the times I've played SI (ok - Vasculio slammed me if I was too lazy to get magebane

It's not the exult teams job to make the games more competitive, I do understand. But the games as they stand are very, very easy with the add-ons. I was just thinking of ways to adjust play balance without just blanket making fights harder/monsters do more damage.

[drcode]

I just skipped FoV the last time I played. I like the way you start out poor and vulnerable and then gradually level up. For similar reasons, I didn't get the magic carpet until fairly late in the game. Travelling by ship gives me a much better feeling for the vastness of the game world.

[Vexblackheart]

I disagree with most of those issues. You only know about the flying carpet and the locations of the items because you played through before. What of the people who haven't played before? Finding that magic carpet would be a wondrous find if you've been sailing and walking the whole game.

If you would like a challenge set your own limitations. Examples could be like to try and play through with just the avatar, or never stealing anything.

[Daemongar]

I guess I'm not making myself understood. FoV grossly unbalances U7 whenever you play it - but now it's part of the game - I can't picture finishing U7 without getting the Black Sword. Does this make sense?

SS is different, those items can be dropped - but I included the items from there to state how and why the game gets too easy in SI.

I can set "artificial" limitations on my Avatar - suppose I could hack his stats after FoV to make them normal again and drop everything that I deem overpowering. I'm just making the case that the games are very quickly "out of balance."

If at 5th level in NWN you got a sword that gave you +10 to hit and +20 on damage (and you were a fighter) - sure you could drop it, but it gives you a feeling the game isn't polished or something isn't right, and cheapens the experience. There is an elephant in the room, I guess, and saying "Ignore it and have fun" makes some sense, but I can't.

I can't explain it any better - maybe those know more about RPG development can put it better.

Just my .02, mind you.

[drcode]

Yes, I understand. Part of the fun of an RPG is starting out weak and then watching your character grow. That's one reason I really liked Privateer and its add-on, Righteous Fire (which had my favorite vilains amongst all the games I've played).

[Vexblackheart]

I also understand what yer saying. But U7, to me, was more about the story and exploration of the huge open-ended world, not combat. Combat in U7 seemed somewhat sloppy and mysterious to me compared to game like Final Fantasy. But that didn't matter. *shrugs* It never seemed too challenging to begin with, so I guess I never noticed the added conveniences...

[Crowley]

I have to agree with Vex. Building up your party in U7/SI without the addons works pretty much like this: Find monsters your party can dispose of without too much difficulty. Hit C and wait until the monsters are all dead. Repeat until someone rises a level, then go find a trainer. Repeat until satisfied.

And you can stick the Black Sword to Avatar's back/belt if you don't fancy using it.

[drcode]

You can also gain experience by "fighting" in the stadium. I'm pretty sure you get it whether you win or lose.

[Warder]

Oh, and I wouldn't call selling serpent venom 'drug running'.
Kessler's a good guy - he's trying to learn more about the drug, not hawk it to junkies.

[Daemongar]

I also understand what yer saying. But U7, to me, was more about the story and exploration of the huge open-ended world, not combat. Combat in U7 seemed somewhat sloppy and mysterious to me compared to game like Final Fantasy. But that didn't matter. *shrugs* It never seemed too challenging to begin with, so I guess I never noticed the added conveniences...

People saying that combat is easy and crummy doesn't exactly work against the original premise - it kind of compliments it. Surely you're not saying that since combat is sloppy in the original it should still be sloppy? We have Exult, for crying out loud!

The game balance needs work - not just combat. I hold it could be better and people here have the wherewithal to do that. I'm hoping they do, or at least consider it.

The game has a lot of elements that are eliminated very quickly, and removes a lot of character from the game. The balance was lost by Origin in order to move expansion products - during the end part of the products sales. Now it is fully part of the Exult program (you know what I mean), and everyone’s collective Ultima playing experience.

I say it needs work.

[Vexblackheart]

Heh, no one remembers/knows how combat worked anyway. I do agree that the the game could use some improvements, but what you are talking about sounds like a whole new game. I don't think the orignal game should be changed as much as you are suggesting.

[crazypete]

On the note of "artificial limitations" as I mentioned in a previous post: try this. Equip your party with none plate, non magic items. I mean regular run of the mill store bought stuff and bag the glittering magic plate suits in a barrel at your "base" or however you do it. I have spark in leather armor using throwing daggers and throwing axes, shamino with his triple crossbow wearing leather and sentri with a musket and wearing chain, my avatar in a suit of chain with a mace and so on. Only dupre wears plate cause it seemed fitting for a knight.

Try it! You wont actually be "challenged" really this way either since you outnumber enemies 8-3 usually but it will feel like you have to "work at it" to get things done. I left my carpet behind and "hump it" to where I need to go or sail.

This is a game. If you feel too powerful, then heck! Change it. It's all about enjoying yourself. Plus, once bereft of all their plate, your guys turn into real pack animals, and you can haul around absurd amounts of stuff. and wont need that carpet.

[Oblivious]

Well, as far as those things in SE, the SI add-on was meant to be played only AFTER the banes are released, in which case the goblet and ring of reagents make sense, as does the helm of light. Why? Because the townes get destroyed, making food and reagents very difficult to find.

[Phil]

Using the cheat mode I lowered all the starting stats by 3 pts (except int,
wich has no use for the other NPCs) for every 8 party members.

So instead of having 18 Str I had 15 Str. Same for dex. I lowered the intelligence of the Avatar too.


The game was much more fun since I could still train my Strenght at level 9 lol : )



An it was much more challenging. Even with plate armour the party was not invincible at level 5-6.


I wish these would be the real starting stats...

[Daemongar]

I think DrCode was spot on when he said "Part of the fun of an RPG is starting out weak and then watching your character grow"

I've played a LOT of crpg's and rpg's over the past 20 years. Play balance cannot be undersold. If you are uber very quickly, something should be done, but that's how it was and, I guess, that's how it must be.

But I'll shut up about this already - I'm starting to sound like a broken record. But: I like the dropping 3 points off each ability - if you can still train at 9th level in strength, then that's a fantastic idea for keeping it interesting.


Oh, the days when I wish I didn't spend my time in school learning RPG, COBOL, and Basic and would have learned C++...

[drcode]

Re 'sob story':
The only things I learned in school were PL/1 and MIX:-)
It's never too late to learn a new language.

[artaxerxes]

talking about learning c++, I'm at page 300+ out of ~1200 of:
Thinking in C++
from Bruce Eckel

which is available for free from his web site:
http://mindview.net/Books/DownloadSites (mirror)

The book is not bad and I already start to feel some progress. Still can't master the subclassing syntax though...

Artaxerxes

[Daemongar]

For some reason, I just can't *think* like C++ - I can understand all the prinicples of coding, and have done some spiffy things in the past, but I never got over the hump with C++ and more recent languages. I get a couple hello world's under my belt, do some math type programs, a simple entry screen, and then they start on libraries and I get spooked.

Thanks for the book reference, though. I've been looking for a good book on it, and the free part doesn't hurt! The irony is recently I mentioned on /. that I wanted to learn C++ and someone recommended Thinking in Java by Bruce Eckel - for and introduction to OOP and it's easier to learn for beginners.

[drcode]

You could always learn C++ by studying the Exult code. Or maybe you could learn how not to code C++:-)

More seriously, the best way to learn a language is to assign yourself a project, which you've already done, or to try to make small improvements to an existing project in that language.

[WishStone Dragon]

*mutters*

Okay, back to topic: I like how it is. I (most of the time) want to play a game to RELAX and not think much. If I want to do that, I adjust the difficulty. Or try a harder way. I highly dislike stuff (like some real time strategy games) that you play on EASY mode and still can't finish the levels unless you plan everything from step one to the last minute of 3 hours of playing. That's chess and Chess and Wishy don't mix

If you guys want it difficult, what is stopping you from playing it difficult? No one holds a gun to your head and tells you to use the ring of reagents for example

[Adamantyr]

Play balance? In Ultima? *looks confused*

Seriously, though, if you were expecting a balanced advacement system, then you have the wrong game. None of the Ultima's have ever really been "play-balanced" to ensure a steady progression. This is largely a side-effect of the open-ended nature of the game. Because you can go anywhere and do anything in any order, they really can't guarantee you won't run into something you can't handle.

This goes back all the way to Ultima 2, where you're so weak at the start every fight is desperate, and by the end you're so tough you can kill any monster in one blow. Leveling, training, and magic prowess has never really been the focus, the plot and goal elements take precidence. Look at Serpent Isle, it's actually better to level up your companions and yourself to maximum in Monitor before progressing to Moonshade, because you won't be returning for some time. You max out your character a long time before you even reach Batlin and Spinebreaker. But since it's plot-driven, that's all right, you still have a lot to do that's challenging.

Then you have Ultima 9... oh, that's balanced. You do everything in a particular order, you only gain spells after completing one dungeon/column deactivation, you can only gain attributes by cleansing shrines and conversely can only gain fighting skills if your attributes are high enough. It's a different kind of game, which is why so many fans hate and despise Ultima 9.

Adamantyr