GOTHIC2 vs ULTIMA 7 EXULT

ArticFox · Post by **ArticFox** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:19 pm

Hello. I am in the mid 40s, new to this forum, and have just recently discovered CRPGs with GOTHIC 2. I am amazed to come across an inteligent creation on the PC.

Research on the Web indicates that the latest is not always the greatest in regrds to CRPGs. I have read high praise for Ultima 4, Ultima 7 and Daggerfall.

I am enjoying GOTHIC 2, and plan to compare it to Morrowind, which is highly rated on RPGDOT.COM.

I would like to ask forum members if it is worth exploring ULTIMA 7 via Exult, as a means to experience an ultimate RPG, despite the advancement of 3D graphics?

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:37 pm

The visual quality does not define a game, but its contents. Think of it like a movie. If the story, the acting and actual entertainment are bad, the special effects won't make it a good movie. Think if Ultima 7 as an old movie without the technology of today. It is a game done in that time when the developers were more concerned about the content and gaming experience more than the visual aspects.

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:49 am

Is it worth it? Absolutely! If you don't care that much about graphics or can enjoy well done graphics although the engine is dated.

My favourite three RPG are, just if you care or didn't know about those others, Deus Ex and Planescape: Torment (well Ultima 7, too, but that's obvious I guess heh)

All three have gameplay over anything else, except perhaps the story. So if you like a very nice story and good gameplay, try those

Achenar · Post by **Achenar** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:01 am

Hi Christian,

I highly recommend giving Ultima 7 and especially U7 Part II (Serpent Isle) a try.

I have recently been playing Gothic II, and although it is one of the better CRPGs of the last couple of years, despite it's graphics, I consider U7/SI to be a profoundly superior experience.

Interestingly, quite a lot of effort was put into making the Gothic II world a "living and breathing" environment. They have done quite well, but (again, despite the non-3d graphics), I felt SI caputued this feeling better. There is a higher level of interactivity, and the characters (schedules, etc.) are more intelligent. I also found the story more compelling.

Anyway, yeap I think you should go for it

Wtcher · Post by **Wtcher** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:37 am

Daggerfall is fun but the NPCs are generic billboards and the storyline is just about non-existent.

cyberfugue · Post by **cyberfugue** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:41 am

Absolutely try both U7 pts 1 & 2! You'll never go back.

PascaL · Post by **PascaL** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:16 am

Play Ultima 3 or 4 first and make your way up to 7. RPG's, by their nature, are story-driven adventures, and if you want to experience the world of Ultima to its fullest, you need to go through the whole story line. Of course, some would argue that you'd need to start with Ultima 1, or even before, but for me, the story didn't get particularly deep until Ultima 4. But the Ultima 3 experiences makes the Ultima 4 experience even better. And the U4 experience is arguably the best one of all.

Post by **drcode** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:52 am

I'd recommend starting with Ultima7, then try the earlier Ultimas if you get hooked.

Post by **Dominus** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:02 am

Yup, that's how I got hooked. Maybe try one of the Underworlds too.

ArticFox · Post by **ArticFox** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:05 pm

Thank you all for responding to my post.

I am surprised. It appears that the Ultima Series experience has been very rewarding for many RPG players over the years.

I may just start with the earliest Ultima that I can run on XP with whatever utility I can find. I like the epic feel of a series - like books.

I can still play Infocom text adventures from a masterpiece CD set, but you all may be too young for such history.

Post by **drcode** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:26 pm

Uh, no:-) I played "adventure" on an HP/3000 and "dungeon" (the original, free version that later became Zork) on some model of PDP.

Andrea .B. Previtera · Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:34 am

I think my very first approach to a RPG (or at least RPG-like) game, has been on the C64 with "Sword of Fargoal", back in...uhm...1986 probably. I can undoubtely say that it became one of the pinpoint of my life, one of those things which change you forever, since I whenever I think of it I can still feel the smell and "light" my room had 18 years ago...

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:24 am

Try starting with Akalabeth, the very first Ultima

About make them work, just use Dosbox, I can run every ultima in it with no problems in win2k, I think it would work the same for XP

Playing all the ultima games is gonna be a bit difficult there is at least 18 games, some of them unimportant to the main plot of the cardinal games.

the order I played them was:

Akalabeth
Ultima 1-2
Ultima escape from mount drash
Ultima 3

Ultima 4-6
Ultima Runes of virtue 1-2
Worlds of Ultima 1-2

Ultima Underworld 1
Ultima 7 part1
Ultima Underworld 2
Ultima 7 part2
Ultima 8-9

RazorBlade · Post by **RazorBlade** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:34 am

quote:

Ultima Underworld 1
Ultima 7 part1
Ultima Underworld 2
Ultima 7 part2
Ultima 8

If you play nothing else, play those Ultimas, in that order

That's the plot order, although UU1 doesn't really progress anything, it's just ... there

But it's really great, too! And a million times better than any of the elder scrolls games.

My first quasi RPG was 'Prince' on the Sharp MZ700/800 although it was more Zelda-like. Other than that a lot of RPGs on the C64 which I don't remember the names of. (And some stuff I made mysself there, when I started to "code"-heh, well, basic you know;)- on the godly C64 lol)

Ken Oh · Post by **Ken Oh** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:59 am

I would have to argue that the Ultimas before 7 hold alot of storyline as well. I've only played 3 and 6 before UU, but that was a long time ago, and there is alot of storyline with the Gargoyles and such (and Sherry! Dont forget Sherry the mouse!).

cyberfugue · Post by **cyberfugue** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:22 am

Definitely not too young - I'm an Infocom junkie. I have a lot of the original boxes as well as the Masterpiece collection.

Post by **drcode** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:17 am

I just have the Lost Treasures of Infocom (and still have only played about half of them). I'd imagine that those original boxes would have pretty high collector value.

Tristan de Inés · Post by **Tristan de Inés** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:45 am

The Gothic / Gothic 2 Engine is how the Ultima 9 engine should have been.

ArticFox · Post by **ArticFox** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:44 am

Thank you for this list. I printed it for my notes.

My focus is to experience U4 and U7, but I am willing to experience previous games to enrich the story. Which of the games on your list of 18 are not important for this purpose?

Christian

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:01 am

Runes of Virtue series, Worlds of Ultima series, and Ultima Underworld 1 are not important for the story.

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:06 pm

Akalabeth and Escape from mount drash are also not important to the main story.

But I truly recomend to you both worlds of ultima and Ultima Underworld 1.

TheGreenKnight · Post by **TheGreenKnight** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:30 pm

I have played both Gothic and Gothic 2. Gothic I haven't played all the way through and I have saved my save files for the future

Gothic 2 I completed and I found it to be totally amazing. The graphics, the story, the whole atmosphere of the game was completely absorbing. It's one of those rare gaming experiences, whereby every day you play it you live it, and when you go to bed it plays over in your mind

Would be nice to see the original Gothic on Linux, as I remember the key combinations/interface were a bit unwieldly, and we could fix it.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:57 pm

How is it you could miss RPGs for so long? Actually, I didn't know anything about Gothic so I'm not really keeping up with them as much as I could be either. I just happened to find a description/review of Gothic 2 on The Underdogs website today, completely by accident.

> I am amazed to come across an inteligent creation on the PC.

What does that mean?

I don't know why you'd want to play IV and VII and not V and VI; that entire group is among the best in the series. Although it is true that IV and VII start their respective trilogies and are more important to the overall story, VI introduces the gargoyles. (who pretty much go the way of Klingons and wimp out on us by VII)
You definately don't have to play Akalabeth, but do read the introduction story in the accompanying text file. (and I recommend at least reading the premise of each game you choose not to play)

Anyway, this topic made me start thinking I should play U4, and perhaps U3 again. My question is - if Lairware U3 is the best - what is among the best renditions of U4? The freeware VGA version, XU4, some remake?

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 3:01 am

I think the best port of u4 should be the PC one with the VGA upgrade. The first U4 I played was the Master System port and personally it´s very good too though the dungeons are 2D like the towns. But it works with keywords you choose through a menu, like u7 but without a mouse

if you don´t like to write with the keyboard, that´s your game.

Don´t play the nes port

you will find a big guy called Julius instead of julia and so on.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:41 am

Also, in the NES version, there is no cheap way to open locked doors. You have to gather 2,000 gold in order to buy a key you can use indefinitely. It's nice that you only have to buy one key, but spending 2,000 in the only way to open a locked door is ridiculous.

Another thing from the NES version is you don't see the approaching enemies in the overworld. Another is even if you don't move, time passes (in other words, it's not turn-based). Also, the reagents are called "herbs" instead (!!!!!), and have silly names, different from the original.

Another is you don't have to mix the "herbs" to prepare spells for casting. Another is you only get to have a party of 4. Another is the place where you get the white stone, it's now a cave which you enter to get it from a chest. In that same cave, there is another chest with a "scale from exodus" (!!!!!), which you bring to the blacksmith in Minoc to forge a +2 axe...

There are no mountable horses in the game either. Also, whenever you hear about a new spell, you have to go to Moonglow so a girl writes it into your spellbook, where you have to guess the reagents first, and if they are wrong, she says so and doesn't write it, so you have to try again.

Also, there is no such thing as a Mantra in the whole game. Also, you never get the visions at the shrines, so there is never a reference to Infinity nor Veramocor nor any mystical words we got so used to and love so much.

And so many other differences. Oh, almost forgot, Dupre and Iolo wear pink armor, Katrina has white hair, Jaana and Shamino have black hair, and as Natreg mentioned, Julia was replaced by a bald robust guy called Julius.

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:52 am

LoL

you see? that´s why I didn´t want to talk about the nes ports

Hey Gradilla what do you think of the u7 snes port? hehehe what was the name for the liche in skarabrae? oh yeah Rudolfo? (or something like that).

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:25 am

That one is even worse, Natreg. I could not bear to play it for more than an hour. At least Quest of the Avatar for the NES was not so censored and dumbed.

I also played Exodus for the NES; that one was a nice rendition, where the differences weren't so critical. For example in the circle of light, instead of giving you the password for the serpent to let you pass, they give you a horn to awake it. As for the exotics, they were called mystics, and you needed a silver pick to dig the weapons, and a gold pick to dig the armor. What I consider a bug is that the druid regains MP at the same rate as everyone else. Also the armor and weapon names are changed. Everything else is pretty much the same. An added bonus is the Casino found at some townes.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:45 am

I forgot to mention that the weapon names are changed too. The dungeon names are different as well, and there were some VERY minor changes to the landscape, almost unnoticeable; the most noticeable is the mountains north of the city of Moon.

And I got too carried away with the comments about Exodus and forgot to talk about U7 for SNES. About U7 for the SNES, it's not even the same game, trust me. The player plays alone during all the game, no party members. All the murders were replaced with kidnapping. The dialogs are too short and the NPCs you can talk to are very few. Most of the NPC portraits are the same. The world and scenarios are completely different from the original. The game becomes monotonous after a while, for the lack of diversity in NPCs. Overall a very lacking game, not even a slight resemblance to the original.

Natreg · Post by **Natreg** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:54 pm

Well, U7 for SNES is the only nes port I finish, well that and the runes of virtue. I didn´t like it, but well, at least there were new subquests sometimes...

the best nes/snes port was personally the Ultima VI one. Fullscreen, Geoffrey, Nystul and the wingless Gargoyles had something to say (not much). Add a mouse to it and it could have been the best port.... I hate that kind of menu system and battle system was annoying.

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:52 am

Ultima VI for SNES was nice. I missed the portraits, though.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:28 pm

Ultima VI SNES is the first Ultima I played! Well, I may have played Runes of Virtue first but I don't really remember it. So when I played I didn't even notice the difference, and when I played the PC version I realized it was much better, but I had gotten then basic gist of it from the SNES version. Can't say that for U7: beside the fact that I played PC version first, I could only stand 30min of the SNES version.

Skutarth · Post by **Skutarth** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:59 pm

"The visual quality does not define a game, but its contents. Think of it like a movie. If the story, the acting and actual entertainment are bad, the special effects won't make it a good movie. Think if Ultima 7 as an old movie without the technology of today. It is a game done in that time when the developers were more concerned about the content and gaming experience more than the visual aspects."

- Gradilla Dragon

What are you talking about? I love the graphics in Ultima 7!

Gradilla Dragon · Post by **Gradilla Dragon** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 4:57 pm

Skutarth, can you be more specific while quoting me? I can only guess what you disagree with me.

From what I can guess, you may be thinking I said the U7 graphics were bad. I never said that. I said at that time the graphics and visual effects weren't given as much importance as it is given today.

If you look at today's games, most of them concentrate so much in the visuals that they forget about the rest of the game. They are flashy, but nothing else.

zos/X · Post by **zos/X** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:34 am

Fallout! Fallout! Fallout!

I can't get rid of my fallout addiction!

I'm playing Fallout 2 ATMs and I can't wait to get some power armor!

Next I'll have to try Fallout Tactics....I always loved the turn based combat in fallout.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:27 pm

So Fallout 2 has Power Armor? Suddenly I am compelled to continue my game! (I started playing Fallout2 several months ago, and stopped after doing all the quests in New Reno and going to the next city. I just havn't had a chance to pick up where I left off yet.)

zos/X · Post by **zos/X** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:37 pm

I'm pretty sure it does. (its my first playthrough) The walkthrough mentions it, so I'm sure it exists. How could it not have power armor and be called fallout? IIRC one of the startup screens is a tribal guy with a power armor helmut on. Fallout 2 is so much bigger than Fallout 1, but I get the feeling that the violence has been toned down somewhat. It seems like 80% of the quests so far are more or less fetch questswithout a whole lot of action. The peaceful solutions seemed encouraged a lot more here as well, whereas in the first one you could just pretty much kill anyone that gave you opposition without a whole lot of reprecussions. I'm currently going through New Reno now. I hooked up Sulik, Vic and Cassiday with some lady action as well. I thought it was kinda weird when I first visited the prostitutes and after I was, ahem, finished, Cassidy says "I haven't played with myself for a long time." I guess he likes voyerism.....

Still great though. I wish the car did something cooler, but hey, its a car.

zos/X · Post by **zos/X** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:52 am

I do know what it is like to drop one game and play another for a while. There are so many games I never finished because of that. Martian Dreams is certainly one, and SB-X, you are completely right. It always bugged me how desolate the martian dreams landscape is. I mean you really needed a map to figure out where the fsck you were because everything looked the SAME after about 5 minutes. Still a neat little game. I remember those robots in the mines. I always wanted to make an irc bot with their responses, because I thought they were kind of neat. They kind of reminded me of the tin man in return to oz, who was one of the best interpetetations I've seen of a steampunk robot. All mechanical...nothing electrical or electronic. I think that steampunk is probably going to be even more popular as we start to enter a completely digital age (We are pretty much there). I could be wrong though.

Since I'm rambling, I should mention that a very large number of german and eastern european developers are all making Fallout-like games. Some are even cloning the interface. nma-fallout.com (No Mutants Allowed!) has a ton of coverage. While most will likely suck, some of them look pretty neat. Post apocalyptic (PA) games are seemingly catching on as well. Personally that's why I liked Fallout so much, because the world was very dark and dreary and it WASN'T set in some fantasy tolkein-ripoff world.

Fallout, I think, showed a lot of us that you don't need knights, castles, and magic to make a fantasy game work. Anyone ever play Earthbound? It is great and funny! It also happens to be set in the 1990s (well 199X, I think). It is a fairly goofy console styled RPG, but it makes so much fun at the genre while at the same time being reallly pretty new and fresh itself. There are aliens and a whole bunch of weird goofball enemies, like the hippie. I don't think there are any other games where you can effectively beat up a hippie with a plastic baseball bat.

Oh Gods, I could ramble on for hours, but, I'll stop now!

zos/X