Legal Issues w/ Remakes etc

[Warder]

Derailed from the Ultima 7 HD thread.

To make a few things clear, NO Ultima remake project has EVER received a cease and desist order from EA. The truth of the matter is that EA doesn't even tend to reply to people who email them to ask for permission; presumably because legal red tape prevents them from giving the green light, so they stay quiet instead of shutting the projects down.

The Lazarus Team even had legal help during their development to straighten out the issues (if memory serves, their team lead's college provided legal assistance as Lazarus was a college project). They never had any issues at all with EA, except the lack of response - they very nearly shut down the project simply because they never got a reply.

As long as you don't distribute any assets that belong to Electronic Arts - like art or sounds - and as long as you don't try to charge for what you're doing, no one will bother you. Hell, look at the number of Ultima Online private servers that are up and running.

Now, if you try to remake a Lucasarts game, prepare to feel the legal bootheel cave in your creative ambitions!

[Andrea B Previtera]

Warder, no one will answer this message, and after a couple answers it would probably be frozen anyway.

There's something "dark" going on with the Exult forums, I take this chance to write "my two cents" about it, since I would have never opened a specific thread on the subject.

I can understand the freezing/removal of a thread where someone blatantly asks for or points to illegal downloads. But there has been a growing trend on freezing, censoring and removing other posts where people is just debating on U7 copyrights issues, ip ownership etc.

Recently it got to the point where Efry was just hinting that he's trying to reverse the logic of U6.EXE for his work on Nuvie, and the thread was frozen soon thereafter.

Let's say it was frozen because it was about Nuvie and not about Exult. Ok, that's another thing that's happening: off topics are being frozen and removed as well, even if they're about other ultimas, remakes or whatever. They're still off topic of course, as they're not directly related to the Exult engine, but is it really bad that the Exult forums somehow during the years have been gathering a status of hub to a certain type of Ultima fan and remake/reengineering developers?

There's some sort of "dark" seriousness growing here, making fun is ok but making too much fun will get a thread frozen. Speaking of Exult is ok but speaking of other engines isn't. Talking about your own legally owned copy of exult is ok, but add that your disks are corrupted and you may try to download it somewhere else, and the thread will be frozen.

As I tried to state with that jokingly message where I impersonated a federal agent (zing! thread frozen!), aren't you taking all of this a bit too seriously?

[TDI]

Andrea speaks heresy and I hope one of the holy inquisitors will freeze this thread soon.

All hail the legitimate Ultima 7 copy.

[Dominus]

damn it, one false click and my lengthy reply was gone...

Ok, that's another thing that's happening: off topics are being frozen and removed as well, even if they're about other ultimas, remakes or whatever. They're still off topic of course, as they're not directly related to the Exult engine, but is it really bad that the Exult forums somehow during the years have been gathering a status of hub to a certain type of Ultima fan and remake/reengineering developers?

It is really that bad.
This forum is intentionally kept so very simple (ease of registering, anonymous posting...) that people asking for help with Exult can just come and ask. Almost every other support forum makes you run through hoops until you can finally ask your question. If we'd become a general Ultima forum we couldn't maintain this ease of use any longer. And we'd need more moderators because Ultima fans attract trolls, always have and always will. We'd need a set of rules and people'd need to accept them and so on. Especially we'd need a much more moderator friendly forum. Right now all we can do is freeze or edit a thread. We can't split a thread or join a thread.
At the moment with the ACTIVE man power of Exult I'd rather have Marzo code, than police a forum that has almost nothing to do with Exult anymore.

Not to mention that soon after being a general Ultima board we'd become a general small talk board. Becasue is it so bad to allow the occasional small talk, after being soooo popular with Ultima fans. After all Ultima fans want to talk about other things than Ultima from time to time...

I do close threads because they are very off topic (like asking for help with Dosbox), request or link to U7 download, blatantly ignoring the search function and when I feel the people need to cool down again.
I do delete posts when they either contain spam or are just meant to offend another poster (I might reconsider this in future and just edit the post in question accordingly and add that I edited it).
I absolutely hate it when people steer a thread totally off topic. Like this thread. Why couldn't you just post your beef in a new thread? Why pollute this thread with this?
Or when recently Alagner probably wanted to ask here "Btw, what happened to the Lazarus forums...", but instead of asking here where I would have resented it also, he somehow missed the topic and asked in "At this point: What is DEAD and what is STILL ACTIVELY DEVELOPED?" (OTOH that made me smile a bit when I figured out that it was probably meant to be in this thread).

It's the same reason I closed the Nuvie thread. Not because of Efrys disassembling post. I don't care about that since Efry is old enough to fend for him self. If he'd want it deleted I'd do it. But the thread just turned into a joke and had nothing to with Nuvie anymore and it probably wouldn't have turned again...

In my original post I had a list of frozen threads and explanation why they got frozen. Don't care anymore, if you have a beef with a frozen thread post it HERE in this thread, since you managed to mess this one up anyway.

Talking about your own legally owned copy of exult is ok, but add that your disks are corrupted and you may try to download it somewhere else, and the thread will be frozen.

Hasn't happened in a long time, right? And we do have that rule for a reason. If someone brings up a downloaded version that someone should have known better.

Speaking of Exult is ok but speaking of other engines isn't

Yeah, right like we closed all your Engine threads. And all other Engine threads, happy searching for those threads... And yes, they are not entirely welcome, as stated above...

Edit:

But there has been a growing trend on freezing, censoring and removing other posts where people is just debating on U7 copyrights issues, ip ownership etc.

Seriously, which threads? I've been going through all the frozen threads since sometime in 2006 (and back then we froze a lot of threads because of the spam issue) and I'd like to know which you mean.

[MeddlingMonk]

Anyway, all boards have rules and boundaries. Many have subtopics. This one doesn't. There's nothing sinister about that. Unmoderated or poorly moderated boards are soon not worth visiting.

[Andrea B Previtera]

> It is really that bad.
> This forum is intentionally kept so very simple (ease of registering,
> anonymous posting...) that people asking for help with Exult can just
> come and ask. Almost every other support forum makes you run through
> hoops until you can finally ask your question. If we'd become a general
> Ultima forum we couldn't maintain this ease of use any longer.

Ok. I totally agree with this, and it's a clean and logical point that I didn't consider, honestly.


> I do close threads because they are very off topic (like asking for help
> with Dosbox), request or link to U7 download, blatantly ignoring the
> search function and when I feel the people need to cool down again.

I agree with this too! Infact I didn't even mention Dosbox stuff (that's really illogical, it's like asking how to clean your microwave owen on a cooking forum), and I explicitly pointed out that I am againist blatant illegal downloads talk too etc.

> I absolutely hate it when people steer a thread totally off topic. Like this
> thread. Why couldn't you just post your beef in a new thread? Why
> pollute this thread with this?

This is arguable. It's the way conversations work, someone, sooner or later, will steer from the inital subject. Ok, the topic/thread system is meant to bring some "organization" into that chaos, but condemning the steering phenomenon is... a bit short sighted. In this particular case I admit I brought the subject out of topic immediately, but I did it only because the thread had been unanswered for a while, and the initial subject was covered again and again and again...

> In my original post I had a list of frozen threads and explanation why
> they got frozen. Don't care anymore, if you have a beef with a frozen
> thread post it HERE in this thread, since you managed to mess this one
> up anyway.

No specific beefing. But THIS makes me smile (really ) - this... parent/children attitude, this particular flavour of seriousness "you managed to mess this one up anyway! now go finish your homework"


> Yeah, right like we closed all your Engine threads. And all other Engine
> threads, happy searching for those threads... And yes, they are not
> entirely welcome, as stated above...

Uh, actually I totally forgot about my thing. It wasn't ever frozen, actually, and I wonder why! I felt guilty everytime I posted, really. Half for the offtopicness, half for the shameless self plugging. But I've seen other engines threads frozen... or am I wrong? (100% no sarcasm, just in case my broken english makes me misunderstood)

> Seriously, which threads? I've been going through all the frozen threads
> since sometime in 2006 (and back then we froze a lot of threads because
> of the spam issue) and I'd like to know which you mean.

Honestly I couldn't name them. And I talked a bit too much about the freezing, I intended to put more accent on the "darkening" feeling, but it's probably... how can I say, systemic. Something that is part of the system, that has to happen anyway, because when something is finally ripe and complete, the enthusiasm fades, maturity ensues and makes everything a bit more serious.

[Dominus]

In this particular case I admit I brought the subject out of topic immediately, but I did it only because the thread had been unanswered for a while, and the initial subject was covered again and again and again...

This thread has been two days old.
And...

No specific beefing. But THIS makes me smile (really ) - this... parent/children attitude, this particular flavour of seriousness "you managed to mess this one up anyway! now go finish your homework"

This was because it really pissed me off. To steer the HD Ultima thread back on topic, I explicitly asked the people discussing these issues to open a new thread and leave the HD Ultima thread alone with this, especially since I see Wizardrys point and I think discussing these issues is interesting and on topic since it concerns Exult and mods of U7 per Exult Engine. But better served in its own thread and not in a not yet dead other thread.
IF we had a more advanced forum I'd have split the threads and joined them into a new one, but since I can't I have to ask people to do that.

Uh, actually I totally forgot about my thing. It wasn't ever frozen, actually, and I wonder why! I felt guilty everytime I posted, really.

I never minded your Engine threads (which weren't that many anyway, I think. And most of the time it *had* something to do with Exult, for example when you asked about sorting path finding algorithms.

But I've seen other engines threads frozen... or am I wrong?

There have not been such discussions frozen in the last three years.

I *do* ask people to bring more in depth discussions to the respective boards since... yeah, same old... we are not a general discussion forum

[Wizardry Dragon]

To quote William Trottier from PCGamer, "sometimes the words it's just a game seem staggeringly lame". I too feel things have been a little overmoderated however do remember that we must tread with caution as regards engines. The reverse engineering post cited as an example is a suggestion of an act blatantly illegal in some countries. That said I found it's closing extremely ironic.

Wizardry dragon

[WtF Dragon]

Wow, Dominus...all of a sudden your question to me regarding why Aiera's forum disappeared makes a lot more sense. Or no, that's not right. Not "makes more sense," but suddenly I understand the question's context much, much better.

Okay, time to see where bbPress has evolved to.

[Dominus]

It was both a genuine interest to discuss stuff like Forgotten World and also because it is nicer to offer an alternative when sending people away for discussing general Ultima stuff here

[Wizardry Dragon]

I honestly would not mind any ultima-related discussion in the TFL forums if people are looking for alternatives.

Wizardry dragon