Exult Forum

Are there any fantasy games/books/movies where people use both "you" and "thou"? (not interchangeably, but as a formal vs. informal way of addressing people)

I don't know whether there's anything that does what you're referring to, because I very much doubt that there are all that many people who know that 'you' and 'thou' ARE the formal and informal forms of the second-person pronoun. I think that most people think either that 'thou' is simply the old form of 'you' and apply it indiscriminately in an effort to achieve an archaic effect (like Ultima does), or that 'thou' is both old and highly formal due to a misunderstanding of why it is used to address God in older English translations of the Bible (King James/Geneva/Bishops/Coverdale/etc.).

It comes up in the Adept series by Piers Anthony. At one point a native of Phaze, where the older forms are used, makes a bargain with a native of Proton, which uses the modern terms. The Proton native cheats the other on the bargain though the difference in their definitions of the word "you".

MeddlingMonk wrote:
>
> 'thou' is both old and highly formal due to a
> misunderstanding of why it is used to address God in older
> English translations of the Bible (King
> James/Geneva/Bishops/Coverdale/etc.).

It's actually the other way around. If you speak French or Spanish, you will more easily grasp what I'm about to say.

In biblical English (older translations), 'Thou' is the equivalent of the French 'tu' or the spanish 'tú' and is always singular and there is no notion of being familiar or not. It's simply the correct (at the time) way to conjugate in English.
'You' is the equivalent of the French 'vous' or the spanish 'ellos/ellas' and is only plural, again is biblical English (older translations).

It's only later on that the "thou" disappeared to become "you". Some translation use "you" when using the singular form and "YOU" (actually a 'small-cap' font variant) when using the plural form in order to distinguish when the context does not allow it, to be more in line with modern English.

In fact, by today's standards, "thou" is informal. It's what they used when talking to a friend, a family member, a parent, someone one wants to be close to, someone with whom one has a relationship with.

Artaxerxes

I kinda thought "thou" was from the Germanic "Du" (german, norse, swedish, icelandic, et cetra) with an original pronunciation of "thoo" (like shoe) and not the current "thow" (like a ship's bow)

This site gives a fast and easy primer on the archaic English pronouns:


http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/xThou.html

I have a graphic novel coming out next year that makes the formal/informal distinction. It's about an atomic sea creature in the 60s who speaks in iambic pentameter...

www.seafreak.com

What about confusing 'thou' and 'thee'?

I tell thee, thou have no reason to fear. It's easy!

"Thee" is to "thou" what "me" is to "I".

Artaxerxes

Yes, it's like "Dich" ("Akkusativ") and "Du" ("Nominativ") in German.

"thou hast", not "thou have"

"I telleth thee, thou hath no reason wherefore to fear"

Cute.

Let's confuse even more our OP with ancient english:
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum,
Si þin nama gehalgod.
To becume þin rice,
gewurþe ðin willa, on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
Urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg,
and forgyf us ure gyltas, swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum.
And ne gelæd þu us on costnunge, ac alys us of yfele.
Soþlice.

And you thought Shakespeare was hard to read!

Artaxerxes

>And you thought Shakespeare was hard to read!
Gosh, I wish I had taken "Old English" as an optional course during my university studies I had no such opportunity, unfortunately.

But - just guessing - does 'gelæd' mean gold?

alagner wrote:
>
> But - just guessing - does 'gelæd' mean gold?

'gelæd' is the word that became 'lead', as in 'do not lead us into temptation'. You recognize the 'lead' in 'gelæd', and the 'ge' typically used in germanic languages.

Artaxerxes

>'gelæd' is the word that became 'lead', as in 'do not lead us into temptation'. You recognize the 'lead' in 'gelæd', and the 'ge' typically used in germanic languages.

I see, thanks for explaining that.
BTW - can you remommend any book on that topic, or should I just get Beowulf with modern English translation?

Teach yourself Old English is one of the better books available if you want to learn how to read texts like the one posted by Artaxerxes (the Our Father in Old English).