U8, and a few misc. Q's.

[jessica]

what happens at the end of U8?

I played all of U7 Parts 1&2, and started U8, but got frustrated. it's really slow and incredibly different from the U7 games. but I was just curious about what happens? does the avatar go back home? does he end up back with his friends (shamino, iolo, etc.). what's U9 like? I heard it was pretty bad.

Also, I was thinking about buying all of the ultima games (I saw the ultimate ultima set on amazon), are the other ultimas 1-6 more like u7 or u8?
I'm really curious about when he meets shamino, dupre (poor dupre), and his other friends. In U7 they always say "you recognize your old friens 'name' looking a little older than the last time you saw him" or something like that.

Thanks!

ps you guys were a lot of help when I was playing U7. It would be sooooo cool if exult "fixed" all the other ultima games.-- but I know, I know you're only human.

[Armchair_Avatar]

> what happens at the end of U8?

That's like asking "What happens at the end of 2001 - A Space Odyssey?"
You have to see it for yourself.

[drcode]

I'd suggest starting with Ultima4, since that's when the Avatar makes his appearance. Ultimas 4, 5, and 6 provide all the background to Ultima7.

I've also played U1 and U2. There was some fun in them, and some of the characters appear, but there's little interaction with them.

Just be forewarned that the graphics in U4 and U5 are pure 2D. U6, although it doesn't show as much of the world, looks a little more like U7.

[Jon Miller]

The older games are great, but they're gonna seem dated after Ultima 7. You might check out some screenshots on the Internet to see what level of technology you're dealing with. If you do get the Ultima Collection, I recommend starting with 4, which is where things really got rolling. And, incidentally, where you meet Iolo, Shamino, Dupre, et al. Although I guess some of them appeared in the really early ones, but I don't think they said much. Anyway, after playing Ultima 4 for a while, Ultima 5 will seem enriched and kind of spooky, instead of negatively impressing you with the bad graphics and stuff. 5's probably my favorite apart from the two 7s. And then, by the time you get to 6, it's sort of an Ultima 7 prototype as far as the technology goes. All of them in the same spirit as Ultima 7, or rather, Ultima 7 was true to their spirit whereas Ultima 8 was not. Anyway, hope you enjoy...

[Jon Miller]

Whoops, you already said everything I did...

[Christian]

Ultima 5 is really great. I always missed the spellcasting Partymembers in the folowing ones.

[Clock Nova]

Mariah ROCKS!

(and I don't mean Carey)

[Karlos]

I personally missed the turn-based combar from the older Ultimas in U7 and SI. Combat was uninteresting in each of these, so I generally avoided it, and didn't worry about raising my stats. All of the other elements were great, however, so they were still great games.


-Karl

[Skutarth]

Ultima 9 is cool...

But the sloppy programming slows down the game.
Get an Athlon CPU and run it once.

[jessica]

so nobody's gonna tell me how U8 ends? c'mon I'm really curious and I don't want to suffer through the game.

[drcode]

To tell the truth, I really didn't understand it:-)

[nadir]

There are several walkthroughs out there which tell you what happens.
Use Google and spoil yourself.

[MagicMop]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one scratching his head at the end of that one DrCode...

[Armen]

From what i remember, in the end you defeat the titans and take their powers. You then enter a portal back to britannia. When you get there however, everything is all destroyed and there is a big guardian's head carved in stone Some of that might not be accurate, i'm recalling this from years and years ago

[artaxerxes]

that's where I think you could use Exult Studio..... We just make it so that the land on which the avatar appears is another land that belongs to the Guardian, or of whom the guardian is the supreme ruler and at the end the Avatar is sent to Britannia. That would patch the hole.


Artaxerxes

[Tim]

Ultima 9 is a good game. A lot of people give it a bad review because it kinda shoves the past (meaning the previous games) away and doesn't look at it. For example, no one in U9 seems curious about your adventures in Pagan (U8). By the same token, no one in U7 really mentions the old Ultimas. Sentri only says, "we have adventured together before." If it weren't for the Forge of Virtue, there would be little reference to previous games. Despite that, I found U9 a challenging and engaging game. although, I would have preferred more immersion in Britannia ala U7 & SI. If you do get it, make sure you download the patch from Origin. I played a version from before the patch and it had bugs out the yin-yang. I couldn't progress beyond one point because a character wasn't where she was supposed to be so I had to download the patch and start all over. I was 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through the game and I got hosed.

I also never finished U8. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on and how to go anywhere. And the little kids outside Tennebrae always killed me. I disliked U8's interface, gameplay, graphics. I didn't like the jumping and arcade-like play. I hated the conversations because I couldn't scroll through them at my own pace. Sometimes I would miss something or would have to sit and wait for the computer to advance to the next sentence. I did like U8 because it was away from Britannia (a fish out of water type thing). I was all excited to test my virtues in a land where I was completely unheard of. Instead, the game sucked.

[Jon Miller]

Tim, I have to disagree. I think U7's brimming with history, and not just in Forge of Virtue. You've got the museum in Britain and the gargoyle shrines in Terfin. Other places are recognizably the same, though they've changed over two hundred years, like Iolo's hut, where it belongs in Yew. What was Blackthorn's isle, then Sutek's, is now Terfin. What was Sutek's isle, then I don't know what, is now Spektran. Stonegate's around, looking like it should, only ruined, and they didn't even need to worry about it since you have no reason to go there. Most importantly, everyone remembers you. Some of the mages who were alive in U6, and the gargoyle rulers, and the Time Lord. And of course, your companions are overjoyed to see you, and there's a sense of familiarity, even if they don't mention specific events in previous games. In Skara Brae, they even had Quenton explain what happened in U6.

Now, I didn't get very far in U9 before I quit, but I got to the point where I asked that gargoyle in LB's castle what gargoyles are, and that's bad enough. And all those continuity errors on Hacki Dragon's site... I know U9 had some of the stuff I mentioned, like Stonegate, but it looks inexplicably different. In U7, when Lord British's castle went from one story to two, they explained it. How did Stonegate go from a ruined fortress to a tower full of puzzles? I guess the difference, for me, is that the U7 designers were clearly well versed in the history, and respected it even where they didn't acknowledge it outright. And my feeling is that the U9 designers had no idea what had come before.

[SB-X]

Lack of proper NPC scheduling is enough to damn it.

[Stephan]

The list goes on.

The Avatar: "What is a paladin?"

Or you could just stop into the Britain museum. The skull of Mondain? Hello? Or that dagger from Pagan - how the hell did it get to Britannia? I could go on and on about this, but I won't. U9 was an okay game on its own, but it was no Ultima.

[XxVenomxX]

That's almost exactly the same thing I always say about it. "It was a pretty good game in it's own right, but it's not an Ultima"

[Tim]

Jon,

I still think there isn't that much history in U7. The places are all the same as U6, that's about it. No one explained what happened to the basement of Lord British's castle after U5, did they? No one seems to care that the dungeons aren't 8 levels each in U6 and U7. They even changed between U6 and U7. They've changed every game. And what happened to North, South, East, and West Britanny? I think many people wanted U9 to have the same map and people as U7. Well, that didn't happen. I think we can chalk the unfamiliarity with Britannia to the Guardian's influence. I mean, just look at the map, half the continent got blown away. I'm sure a good bit of the populace was lost when the columns appeared. A lot of the "history" you mention is simply geography or buildings. Iolo's hut, so what, he moved (in U5, he lived near Britain). The gargoyle shrines, probably destroyed by the Guardian (Terfin became his new headquarters). The museum, it's in U9. Stonegate, big deal if it looks different, it is just a game. U9 just didn't have "The Wayfarer's Inn" or "The Blue Boar". To me, that didn't keep U9 from being an Ultima.

The only Ultima-reminicing conversation I recall in U7 was with Draxinisum (sp?). And even then, details are, well, not there. How many times do your companions actually discuss your adventures. I mean, sure, U9 is missing Jaana saying, "Where is Sir Dupre? I'd like to have a drink with him" and "Shamino, who's your little mouse-dressed girlfriend?" No one ever spouts off about the battle with the shadowlords or that near-miss at the shrine of compassion when fighting the gargoyles. I feel that would be history, not simply your companions being gaga over you.

The continuity was a problem, sure. How did the Avatar wind up on Earth after escaping Pagan? And what the hell is Amrosia? But, it didn't take away from the gameplay for me.

I also understand how a lot of people didn't feel as immersed in Britannia as they did in U7. I think that has a lot to do with the extremely linear story and almost complete lack of side-quests in U9. U7 had the Avatar fixing everyone up, lugging sacks of flour back and forth, changing diapers, saving some pipsqueak from getting killed by bullies, toting legislation back and forth, finding jewelry, looking for a snake venom theif. This is what you missed in U9. It wasn't the fact that Gwenno transformed into a young woman and Zorn wasn't in Minoc. You miss fixing the miller up with the barkeep. Also, we couldn't make bread in U9.

U9 is an Avatar's Ultima. Why?

1) Not hack and slash. (most important) It had wonderful puzzles.
2) You are the Avatar.
3) Richard Garriot made it. Rushed out the door, but he still was the main force behind the story and so forth.
4) You have to be virtuous.

[XxVenomxX]

Yup, very virtuous. Like stealing something right in front of somebody's face and the stand there humming scratching their head. That's pretty enforcing, lol. And virtuous like when I killed that old lady with the broom in Britain because of her annoying squawking. Not to mention that the guards don't give a rats arse if you kill children, hehe.

I'm not going to get into my personal views of the game, but don't tell someone else that Ultima 9 is something they don't believe it to be. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course.

Oh, and you could make bread in U9. Didnt make it any more Ultima-ish

As I said, I like the game stand alone, but I find it a very dissappointing and sad ending to such a great game series.

[Tim]

Yes, U9 wasn't as good of an Ultima as U7. But, I don't think any of them were anywhere near as good as U7. U4 & 5 were very good games, but the immersion wasn't quite there yet. The conversations were sketchy and brief still. I never played through U6. So, I'm not sure what the whole game is like. I was lukewarm to it when I did play. I know the conversations were more in depth though. I think everyone's hopes were way to high with U9. Way to high.

As for virtue, what I meant was you got bonuses for helping people. I am well aware of the stealing and child-slaying.

I'll have to go try to make bread sometime.

[SB-X]

U6 could be my favorite Ultima. It's up there with U7BG and I have a hard time deciding which one I like best. What I said about U9 scheduling is only what I've heard, since I havn't played through that game yet.

[Skutarth]

The U9 schedule is fine. There just isn't enough things for them to do.

Plus the point that they did not assign to much of them.

[XxVenomxX]

Uh, yeah, thats what the problem *is*.

lol

[Jon Miller]

Tim, sorry it took me a few days to get back to you. You make a pretty convincing argument. I don't think I'll ever go in for U9 (note that I only played the first hour or two before giving up on it), but I think you're right that continuity from one game to the next has never been anything but optional, piecemeal. (Although I'll quibble with you over Iolo's hut. In U4 he lived in Britain, but in U5, didn't you start the game in his hut, which was north of the mountains? Not quite Yew, maybe, but in the vicinity.)

But anyway, to rethink my position slightly, the reason I like U7 and SI the best, and what turned me off about U9, is that the former are about as character-driven as a necessarily plot-heavy rpg can be. That means, first, and as a bare minimum, that characters you've met before remember you. I, too, would have liked to swap Shadowlord tales with the guys and girls who fought them with me. But at least if I want to assume that I could, that I'm still adventuring with the same crew, they won't say anything stupid that'll ruin the illusion. I don't know that they do this in U9, at least when it comes to Iolo and the rest, but those silly questions the Avatar asks kind of ruin it for me. Second, U7 has lots of cool characters, and two or three dozen from previous games. I liked seeing Gorn kind of losing it in the Fellowship Retreat. Sherry, Chuckles, and Nystul are still populating Lord British's castle (which felt pretty empty in U9). And, if I may jump games, I always thought it was a nice touch to have Christopher's ghost contact you in Serpent Isle. This isn't a character thing, but in reading the latest BG walkthrough just posted to the forum, I was reminded about the inlet full of pirates on Avatar Isle. If I'm right and that's a nod, it goes all the way back to Ultima 4.

I know I'm kind of rambling, but I think I can sum up in two points. The first is the one I already made, that U7 feels like it was made by people well versed in Ultima history, whereas U9 felt to me kind of cold and corporate (not just the columns, i don't think ). The second thing is that I actually didn't like the little love connections and other errands in U7, not after I'd played SI. That's the one I really love, although U7 comes pretty close. Because in U7, playing matchmaker in Paws has absolutely no consequences. Whereas, in SI, linear and annoying as it can be, the characters are as fully realized as I've ever seen, there's so much dialogue that it put some people off, and this time, it feels like your actions can and do change the characters' state of affairs, which is not true in U7. I loved when you'd be talking to someone and one or all of the companions would break in. I loved that, in some cases at least, you'd talk to someone later in the game and they'd have an entirely different role to play, instead of Finnegan still offering to tell you the password is blackbird. Sorry if my sudden reversal is making this hard to follow, but for a while there it really felt like the games were getting more and more involved, more immersive, more self-aware (for that see the acting company in Britain in U7). So my question is, does U9 have any of this stuff? Any feeling that you're in a world populated not just by bakeable bread, but also dynamic npcs? Any feeling that this is the same land you've already saved a million times, that you're supposed to be the hero of?

Wow, long post. This is fun to talk about...

[SB-X]

Shamino talked way too much in SI. I've only played up to Fawn and I think that already. Guess I better play the game from start to finish and see if he ever shuts his mouth.

[Tim]

Jon,

Oh, I definately agree that U9 wasn't nearly as immersive as BG or SI. But, it never bothered me. When I played U9, I thought the game had a chilling feel. Britannia did seem alien to me. But I said to myself, "I have to go punch the Guardian in the nose for ruining my little world."

I beleive all of the characters in U9 that should remember you do. Albeit in an eerie manner sometimes. Although, it's very easy to kill Mariah in Deceit without knowing it. If you don't kill her, she does remember you. I would have liked a very good discussion with the companions at the end, before you go to whoop upon the Guardian.

Does it say how long (in Britannian years) the Avatar was in Pagan, and SI for that matter? That could account for all the different people.

Hmm, yes Iolo's hut was north of the mountains, but it wasn't very close to Yew either. It was pretty much out in the middle of nowhere.

[SB-X]

Does U9 have a party system?

[Brandon]

Hrmm.. I started out with U8, and later went back to play the others. As a consequence, I was able to enjoy U8 in its own right, as a terrifically awesome game. It's no Ultima, but at least it doesn't blatantly violate continuity like U9.

I especially liked seeing Arcadion in Pyros's layer. Just a little something to remind me it was still Ultima.

U9, though, was extremely dissappointing. Dupre is alive? Didn't he die in SI? (sorry if that's a spoiler, but you guys should've played that 5 times by now... no excuse!) And what about Kathrine? You know, that chick by the shrine of Compassion? Had a good thing going, just to throw it all away with some trollop at Buc's Den (oh wait, that already happened in U7, too).

Anyhow, after playing U9, I'm ready to accept U8 as a canonical Ultima. Crud, after playing U9, I'll take Wing Commander 2 as a canonical Ultima (after all, there WERE Kilrathi in U7)!

[XxVenomxX]

Not to defend U9 but you encounter Dupre's spirit to the best of my knowledge, and later on, he is ressurected. And such a heartfelt reunion is had by all the former party members. "I think Dupre is having a drink in the other room"

[Stephan]

"Kathrine"? Heathen, her name is Nastassia

[Colourless]

He's talking about the woman in U9, not U7

[Stephan]

Ohhhh. Well, U9 doesn't count. I thought we had already established that.