Exult Forum

I'm not sure if you guys have heard this message before and I'm sorry if you have, but are you guys going to remove the EXP cap that prevents you advancing past level 8? (I think it's level 8)

If this was taken off, then you could always configure the enemies to make them harder according to your level. I don't know, it's just an idea I think would be cool but it is entirely up to yourselves. Thanks for hearing me out.

I dunno... wasn't the limit level 8 in Ultima VII anyway?

What would be the point?

I don't think that level/experience in U7 has as much of an impact as it does in games like Baldur's Gate. Once you get that high, you have access to the "show stopper" spell anyway -- mass kill -- so you can always win a battle.

I was always more interested in maxing out my abilities anyway, which I believe you can do by the time you reach the so-called "level cap". Besides, I can't ever recall a battle that I thought was "too difficult" after level 6 or so.

Finally, I remember seeing a few comments here that indicated that combat in Exult does not factor in your level to determine hit chance/damage, so it's all a moot point anyway.

It still would be a good feature, you've never played the game like I did.

actually in the original SI, i dun think there is an EXP cap. i have reached lvl 10 with silver seed but without silver, i think if you played normally you will complete game at bout lvl 8 or 9. its near imposs to advance beyond lvl 10 unless you are really patient and enjoying wandering around hacking ALOT of random monsters. (or if you cheat!)
but may i know wat is the purpose of the EXP cap please? just curious.

The purpose is to limit a characters advancement and therefore limiting the long lasting playability of the game (not that it doesn't have enough of that!). It's a programmers lazy way of keeping the game somewhat difficult instead of implementing a kind of level vs fight difficulty ratio like Diablo does.

Neither Ultima 7 or SI seemed to have any level cap. At the least, I was able to reach level 10 in BG and SI, though it took a bit of work in the former. I didn't keep going to see how high it went, but I imagine that XP would only end up capped at 32767 because of integer limits.

Neutronium Dragon

Using the Alt-L cheat, you can level up to level 10. I assume that this is the maximum level cap, at least under Exult.

Ultima is not Diablo. Ultima is not D&D. The game is not about leveling. This is not a hack 'n slash game. This is not a point scoring game. It's about solving a quest. Leveling in ultima is simply a means to that end. That's why you can't level up to level 32767.

Again, I ask: What's the point? Monster spawns don't scale in difficulty with your level, treasures don't scale, quest and subquest puzzles don't become any easier or more difficult. My experience was that after a certain level, you were practically invincible anyway. By the time you max out in levels, you have also maxed out in skill points, you have access to the best armor & weapons available, and you have access to all the spells. Gold becomes useless at this point because there is nothing left to buy, unless this is your way of "keeping score". But like I said, Ultima is not about scoring. It was designed like the adventure games of yore -- once you solve it, there isn't too much else that you can do with it other than trying out the cheats, exploring the few areas you left unexplored, solving any subquests that you might have ignored or missed, and maybe trying to slaughter a town or two

Not all games are designed for unlimited playability, and some of us actually like our games designed this way

I have found the BG to be extremely replayable, almost the highest replay value of any game I've played. And after you've explored everything, talked to everyone, solved all subquests, found all items, done all the small "jobs" around the world, fought every enemy, tried all spells, experimented with explosives, slaughtered the innocent, and assumed ownership of various buildings and dungeons across the land, just wait a few years and go play it again.... almost like new.

Exult doesn't have a level cap as far as I know. And experience is stored as a 'long' now, so you can go over 1,000,000,000. I'm pretty sure the original was the same way, but have never checked.

Also, neither Exult nor the original U7, I believe, uses 'level' in the combat equations.

Oh and don't forget to read "Fear and Loathing in Forge-Of-Virtue"
( http://lightning.prohosting.com/~jpmorris/fear.htm )

Damn, this is such a good game.

Agreed: U7 has re-playablility, but in the same manner that a good book has re-readability. Lots of nuances to explore, lots of stuff to fondly remember after shelving the game for awhile, etc.

My point is that leveling up is not, ultimately, important enough to warrant attempting to reach level 1 billion and 1. Leveling and experience are not what make any of the Ultimas a fun game. Exploring, interacting, solving quests, laying waste to Britannia -- oh, uh, I mean, saving Britannia from the Guardian -- this is what makes the game fun.

No I also meant that there's tons of things to do that you didn't get a chance to do before, and THEN it's like rereading a good book...

Since combat is not this game's strength, I don't see how leveling up can be very amusing for long, but to each his own.

Irinotecan, you have made a rather arrogant assumption there. How can you say the game isn't about fighting when you've got to go trough all those dungeons? You say that all the game is about is doing quests, but many quests require you to fight and therefore fighting is an important part of the game. I never said Ultima was like D&D or Diablo and that is a plus. All that I'm trying to say is that Exult could be even better if there was an option to disable the level cap and possably the stat cap (25 I think).

An option would be a good idea cause people like you who do not approve of advancing you character could simply leave it off. Now it is not essential to the game but so are alot of other features that have been implemented into Exult. This is what makes the Exult engine unique.

Daniel: I think what the others are trying to say is that combat in U7 was the worst aspect of the game. It's just hack&slash and most of the times depending on pure chance. Though I seem to remember seeing notes on the U7 combat that outlined that it is actually much more advanced but I don't remember where I saw this and it has been ages ago.
The only edge you got in combat comes from the stats and once you maxed that out you're pretty much incincible anyway. AFAIK level is only vital for casting spells (not sure about this actually). Removing a level cap (that isn't even there according to Dr.Code - our chief programmer) won't change this.

Leveling up and improving stats just makes no sense in the way combat is currently handled. However if someone would improve combat in the far future to make it turn based I can see possible implementations for experience and level. But as combat is now it just doesn't matter.

Well, given the way the way the players advance levels, you need twice the experience to get to the next level as you did for the previous level. If I remember correctly 6400 xp got you to level 8 so even if you use 32 bits for xp you're only going to progress to level 30 or so and to do that you would have to play the game 24/7 for several years anyway.

The problem with getting above lvl 8 is, as Kennedy said, that the game simply uses a "double-up" scheme so each level takes twice the amount of xp that the previous one did. This very quickly leads to a situation where you will have to kill insanely many monsters to gain just one more level (if it weren't for respawns there wouldn't be that many monsters in the game

What I suggest is that Exult should use the classic level table from the original until the player reach level 8. After level 8 it would take a fixed amount of xp per level (ie. no double up!). This fixed amount should be pretty high (something like 4 times the xp it took to go from 7 to 8 or so) so they players will still have to fight alot to gain these higher levels - but it would not be impossible!

I don't think there are anything in the U7 games that would break from these changes and as someone else said the character is already extremely strong at that point in the game so it wouldn't bring unbalance to the game either.

- Tele

What would be the reason for gaining those higher levels?

Its just makes some of us feel better i guess. wats the point of spending time laying waste to those random monsters when there is nothing to gain. after awhile random encounters will start to get a little bothersome. at least if i could gain some levels from it, irregardless of how insignicant the effective of lvl gaining is, it still makes mi feel that i am getting something from killing those monsters.

Well, in the case where I hit L10 in BG, it was because I was experimenting to see if it could happen.

However, it's also true that you can improve your stats by gaining levels, and some of us are perfectionists when it comes to stat development, even if we're mainly playing for the story.

Neutronium Dragon

I totally agree, it's something inside some of us that makes us feel that little bit better for gaining levels, even though it may seem useless to you. Besides, if you want to play the with only the avatar, you are going to need the extra levels and freedom of choice is what this game is all about.

Please look into this cause that extra feature would be so cool. Like I said before, it's not essential to have it but so are alot of other features that have already been added to Exult. So go figure?

Yep gaining levels is the heart in every RPG IMO.

I always thought role-playing was the heart of every RPG...

Andrew

I thought role playing was gaining levels...

I went into the #exult channel on IRC and it has a few things to do with the Savegame files. There are so many bits allocated to how much each statistic is and if all these are raised to 8, there could be a way to get rid of the statistic cap. now about the level cap, apparently there is a cap on the level-up cheat, but none on actually killing monsters and leveling up. Only problem there is that after a certain while, you need 2x the experience to go up levels. :/

If you have a party in the game then removing the experience cap is not important, but if you want to go solo then ya going to need it off (unless you're good at the spellbook).

Come on guys, I know you are getting annoyed at me asking but this feature would mean so much to many people. If I could program then I would put the effort into changing the source code, but I can't. I'm learning about programming now but it will take some time before I get good at it.

You were wrong, kila.

Oh... I thought he was joking.

Comments like those arn't helping guys.

The point is, there is no exp cap in Exult.

-Colourless Dragon

Sure... my point only was that in Ultima 'gaining levels' is only a means to an end. My opinion is that that is how any true RPG works. Thus, the heart of an RPG is in assuming the role of a character and playing it out in some sort of story... the more open-ended, the better. I think stats/levels add an interesting dimension to all of this, but really I think all of that could be removed and you could still have an excellent RPG.

Granted there a many pseudo-RPGs that borrow the stat/level system and implement 'gaining levels' as pretty much an end... but U7 isn't really one of those. I don't think many people that sit down to play U7 are coming for it's fabulous combat/level system. The levels are there to allow you to tweak your stats and access up to level 8 spells. After that the tool is discarded... This has all been said, so I won't go further.

However, I sympathize with your position. I've asked for stuff and gotten a rather cold response. I'd recommend just entering a detailed feature request, and maybe after all the more serious stuff is finished they'll take a look at it... depending on how easy it is to implement and how many users are actually interested. Whatever the case, it looks like it's probably not going to be implement tomorrow.

If you refer to the alteration of NPC schedules so they perform actions if
you manually set the time, I didn't view the response as cold.

I didn't view it as emotionally cold... not like rude or anything. I didn't mean that. I just meant that not many seemed to think it was very important.

Just to sum up: There's no limit on experience or, I believe, level. But stats are limited to 60 because that's all the current savegame formats can store.

Maybe someone should use ES to create a patch where you can only proceed if you're at level 10:-)

It would be a good feature, and by the amount of interest just in this post, it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks it would be worthwhile. I'd be willing to help with the implementation but I am useless when it comes to programming.

All that I'm asking is that you please just consider it. If it is too hard to program, then I'll understand and stop nagging you.

Hm, Daniel, looking through this thread I see 6 persons in favor of this. When I look at the download statistics of the RC1 I see that around 14500 people have downloaded Exult. That makes 6 persons out of 14500. Quite a lot indeed.

Seriously though don't count on it before the 1.0 release. I guess the whole experience/stats stuff may change when someone takes a look at making combat a bit more interesting.

"Ultima is not Diablo. Ultima is not D&D. The game is not about leveling. This is not a hack 'n slash game. This is not a
point scoring game. It's about solving a quest. Leveling in ultima is simply a means to that end. That's why you can't
level up to level 32767."

Actly Alkabeth was a hack n' slash and U1 gave you choice to be a Classic Fantasy Race and classes..

but your right this is U7,and replaplayablity has nothing to do with class\exp restrictions,thought restrictions are BAD

I wasn't saying that, but if you're going to be playing solo without magic, I think having the level cap removed would be a good idea.
And Dominus, you can't go comparing your download statistics to a forum thread on this webpage! :p
I have downloaded the daily snapshots about 30 times in the last year or so, does that make me count as 30 people who would not like to see the EXP cap removed? But what you have said about the combat is true, it's not all the interesting.

CVS is more fun.

Daniel you are mistaken. I never spoke of the snapshot. I spoke of the RC1 releaseof which the download statistics can be seen at
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... up_id=2335
I grant that I accidently counted the sourcecode downloads as well in my post above so at the moment there were about 13000 downloads of the RC1. And there is no actualy need to download the RC1 more than once except if you accidently deleted it. Subtracting that and those that have multiple OS I'd say we still have about 10000 users. Agreed?

Equating the "amount of interest" in this thread to lots of people thinking this would be a worthwhile change is kind of a stretch. I only count 3 people (including yourself) that have expressed genuine interest in this feature... and about 2x-3x as many people taking the time to question the usefullness of this feature.

Don't get me wrong... I don't really mind if this feature is implemented or not. It seems to me that it can't really hurt anything, so why not? But your advocacy of this based on supposed popular support was quite a distortion of reality.

Have you entered a feature request yet?

It's not a distortion of reality (maybe yours) but in I know of plenty others that arn't always on the Net or specifically in this forum, who think it would be a good idea. and btw I never said there were more people saying that this feature would be useful, just stating that there were many people who have posted in this thread (for good or for bad).

Now who is distorting reality?

What is a feature request too? I have already made several request on this thread alone, so does that count? or do I have to make it formal.

Oh and Dominus, it seems you are mistaken. Thinking that because 10000 or so people have downloaded the offical releases of this project simply means that they are happy with it, is being plain ignorant. Hasn't it ever occured to you that many of those people don't come onto forums like this and speak up?

The number of downloads doesn't always reflect satisfaction. It's like saying that because Windows is the #1 top selling OS in the world, then everyone is happy with it.

arggh! I hate this arguing and I'd program the stuipid thing myself if I was more experienced. Most people on these forums always put down any talk of new features for no valid reason except the "Ultima7 is fine without it" argument. Well I tell you this, Ultima7 would be fine without Exult (in your attitude) because of the other ways to run it. WAKE UP!

Maybe you really have a problem with reality. I NEVER said that all those people are happy with Exult. I only commented on your statement that according to the interest in this thread it would be a worthwhile feature. It could very well be that of those people some or a lot of people are interested in this feature but WE (including you) can't know that. Assuming that all others want the same feature that you want is always kind of odd.

Whatever, it is really not worth bickering over things like this, best is to enter this into our feature request so we don't forget this request:

If you follow the link I gave above you can also get to our Tracker system and from that you can also find our feature request page.

This bickering is silly... but not silly enough to prohibit one more post by me. You said:

"by the amount of interest just in this post, it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks it would be worthwhile"

I labeled this statement "a distortion of reality" because it implies that the "amount of interest" in this post is somehow related to many people thinking your feature "would be worthwile". In reality, the overwhelming majority of the posts here have been AGAINST the idea.

It's like this: I make a bomb and take it out to a crowded area. I announce that I have a bomb and I plan to detonate it and a crowd of people rush over to stop me. Then I make the statement, "By the amount of interest in my bomb, it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks it would be worthwhile."

See how that would be a distortion of reality?

Actually it kind of was silly enough to listen to one more boring post from yourself. I only read half of it and decides not to continue.

Daniel: "I want more Experience Points! Everybody wants more experience--"

Avatar: "Your story has become tiresome. Now we do the Sprokets Dance."

Avatar: *Casts Dance* "Everybody DANCE NOW!!!"

Daniel: "Yeah!!"

Asimpkins: "Get Down!"

Dominus: "Boogie!"

Random Green Slime: "I'm Bad!!"

------
You know what? The best thing about replaying Exult isn't Experience Points; it's casting Dance on everybody!

No better way to liven up a Fellowship meeting, no siree. Beats hiding Powder Kegs in the pews hands down.

How about casting dance and then setting off powder kegs?

hahaha I have to agree
Dance comes before everything,

With Exult Studios paint mode it is quite easy and fun to "set them up the bomb", playing powder keg dominoe... Casting dance before that is naturally a good choice