Could U7 be Garriot's views on religion?

[FitzRoy]

After thinking some more about this, I believe there are many clever references to religion in U7 that it is hard to believe I never noticed them all the first time I played it. None of this is intended to offend anyone, so just keep an open mind.

I think we all know how Garriot views himself as Lord British and Britannia being sort of his dream world that he created where people lived by a set of virtues. Each city is no more important than the other, it is as much a dependence as it is a cooperative coexistance. Even though each city is a different virtue, they realize that they can only succeed achieving happiness with each one as an integer. (an example of this, is in Scara Brae, the city of "spirituality," when Forsythe "sacrifices" himself to save everyone.)

So in comes the fellowship with a different spin on it. Instead of just having these personal virtues, they want people to join them and their set in stone cause and be impressed by their tangibles. The ornate branches, the goldboxes for donations, the intricate designs, and especially the necklace that they give out to members can all be likened to Christianity. Wearing a fellowship necklace is to give people a sense of pride or belonging. The virtue of humility would seem to disagree with this needless display of trinkets to "show off" your faith. It can't just be on a personal level, it must be shown to others who don't have them to show your strength in belonging to a larger group, and to feel a false sense of pride because they are a part of something they are not.

The Gaurdian, I think, symbollically represents God or at least the one that people are fooled into believing in. In fact he is actually refers to himself as the Pagan God in the game (teaser for U8, but still..) He is extremely poweful and he masterminded the fellowship so that would pretty much make him the unspoken god. Of course, I don't think that the fellowship actually mentions the worship of a god, and this ommission by Garriot might insinuate that he still believes in a god. But for organized religion like the fellowship, there is no God, only the Guardian. Of course, this doesn't mean to say that Garriot believes an interdimensional demon exists that is brainwashing us - the game needs an antagonist. So Garriot is certainly relaying here that organized religion's god is either an impossible human interpretation or that a god doesn't exist at all.

There are a variety of other things that can be likened to religion. Firstly, they appear extremely knowledgeable and benevolent on the surface. When you speak to Klog and Ellen in Trinsic, they woo you with their almost rehearsed explanation of the fellowship and it's complexity adding to the smokescreen you will later uncover. And what of Garriot's virtues? They are simple, easy to follow and understand, and do not offer answers to questions that men can never know. (no answers to life and death!) This "I don't know" mentality is something some people are uncomfortable with, so they turn to religion.

Furthermore, religions are intolerant of eachother and sometimes violently lashing out at eachother, contradicting their own teachings and creating turmoil between families who convert (scenario in Minoc where the gypsy's brother joined the fellowship so he threw a rock at the window, and was murdered). This is also representative of how religious groups today constantly attack eachother because of their different beliefs, or interpretations on God. The insecurity that people feel over their religion is overwhelming because there are so many people who basically believe in a different God with different prophets, rules, etc. than they do. So who is right? They can't both be, and so there is hatred.

The fellowship also lies their ass off, and once you get the cube, it is actually quite hilarious to go back and make them be honest (another virtue.) This seems to be sort of a fantasy for Garriot, which he impliments in his game.

Now all of this may have seemed obvious to you all, but maybe my interpretations will give you an even better appreciation for BG and Garriot, who seems to have a very neat perspective on life and the path you take in his game of karma certainly reflects that. There are probably several other representations I am forgetting since I haven't played it in years, but feel free to add to mine or comment on what you got out of it.

[Soule]

I think you may have read too much....
Why not keep things to a simpler perspective?

[nadir]

I think that the religion that Garriott wanted to attack is Scientology

[Trevor_Clim]

"I think that the religion that Garriott wanted to attack is Scientology"
yes, i thought the same while playing it the first time! that's probably right

if you want to know more about garriott's thoughts about ethnic, etc. play Ultima 9 and go in the REAL LIFE-world (the tutorial at the beginning of the game) to the carriage of the gypsy in the parc.
there you can find a book behind the lady, written by richard garriott...

[Laner]

There was a book several years ago on the Ultima series (I forget the exact name, but I have it somewhere), which spoke a lot about Garriot's religious views. He never came out and said it, but from what I gathered he tends to lean towards Buddhism/Universalism - i.e., all religions are equally valid.

[Dino3]

I believe that book is "Ethical Hedonism".

I personally did think of a reference behind the actual context of the game. Is it a coincidence that the city of spirituality is destroyed? I don't think so. For me, it represents a world where spirituality is diminishing. This lack is caused by the Fellowship, which instils wrong beliefs into people's minds.

And now that I think about it, the reference to a world of diminishing spirituality may as well refer to this world - Earth. Many middle-aged people will say that Religion isn't what it once was, and comment on what "the kids of today" do.

And by the way, that "the kids of today" comment is quite racist, in my opinion. It generalises youths.

[FitzRoy]

Someone should just e-mail him and get a good solid interview on Ultima that asks more serious questions like this. I agree that he gets a lot of his philosophy from Buddhism, it's very obvious now that I think about it. I take back what I said about him ommiting god from his games because may still believe in one, he doesn't. I think he did it because instead of compounding the message with whether or not god exists, he wanted to focus on the actual practice of one's own virtues, which is apparently more important to him than worshipping a god. Buddhism doesn't believe in a god, it is about reaching a higher conciousness with one's self and surroundings.

[Khumash-Gor]

This discussion reminds me of all the different fan views of how George Lucas inputs his religious views into Star Wars...

Take it from me. U7 is the greatest game of all time, play it as so and enjoy it. The same goes for Star Wars, watch, enjoy, become a part of it. If you start likening games and movies to religions and beliefs, then you soil them and their very power to put yourself inside of the fantasy.

For me, Games and Movies aren't there to play and watch, they are there for me to be part of. When I'm playing U7, I am U7, the hours would go by at light speed and I wouldn't even know that I was hungry or that I needed to piss so bad my teeth were floating! Lol, and I know each and every one of you that appreciates the game, knows that feeling.

Anyway, my two cents again.

[HellRazor]

I read somewhere (one of the Avatar Adventures books perhaps?) that Richard Garriott's philosophy was, as someone else here said, "Ethical Hedonism". There is a book on this topic within Ultima Online.

HellRazor

[Darke]

There was an interview with LB in the back of the U9 Strategy Guide (of all
places), about 30+ pages long that IIRC explains much of this, where he
got the idea for the virtues from, and touches on his own personal
religious stuff. Unfortunately I can't find my copy at the moment to verify
this (all packed up in boxes around the place, can't be bothered searching
through them all *grin*).

[Dirty Hairy]

I agree with Nadir and Trevor; scientology (and other aggressive sects) also were my first thought when I played the game. The thought of christianity never occured to me before, though there ARE some references...
In most Ultima games, there are some references to social problems - eg. racism in U6, and also drug abuse in u6 and u7. But I think searching for Richard Garriots personal views on religion in the game might be bit far-fetched, after all, he didn't design the whole game himself...

[ascendence]

but ultima's virtues and the events in ultima 7 through 9 do in fact go along with his views on religion. it's mentioned as Darke stated in the back of the ultima 9 strategy guide. i have access to the 30 page interview if anyone needs references. unlike Darke, i kept mine out to play ultima 9 recently. although a few times it crashed i was tempted to box it right back up.

[Trevor_Clim]

kel thomas, may i get this 30page-interview via email from you?
that would be very nice
please send it @
trevor_clim@gmx.net

thx^_^

[ascendence]

u really want me to type up a 30 page interview from the book? i dont have a scanner, and it probably wouldnt turn out as a very good scan if i did it that way. maybe when i get some free time i'll type up that section of the book and put it up on my domain site. i also reread part of it, and the first appearance of his views on religion were in ultima 4 when u become the avatar. if that helps the convo any.

[Trevor_Clim]

uh, no, i didnt know that you have to type it from a book^^
i had not read correctly your post, thought you got it digital already.

no problem

[ascendence]

oh ok, but i was serious about eventually typing it up. i may try searching in a lil while on the net to see if someone already has got it from the book onto a pc.

[Shamino96]

I took the Ethecial Hedonsism word for word out of Ultima 9 and I copied it onto a ultima Online book, copyrights info and all. I have it locked down so poeple can read it if they enter my house. I like his view and have similiar beliefs.

[Thermalax Dragon]

Actually, if you look close at the philosophical concepts from Ultima 4 to Ultima 9, you can puzzle together that he's actually debating philosophical viewpoints from Aristotle and his view of Arete(virtues), Plato's view of government from his book "Republic", and other philosophical views such as Behaviorism, Utilitarianism, Materialism, and Atomism. Not to mention his final debate in U9 between hedonism - doing good deeds for personal benefit, and alltrusim - doing good deeds for the sole benefit of others. I would guess that if he went to college, he would have majored in philosophy. But that's what gives his games flavor.

[Khumash-Gor]

Quite.

[Crypt]

i would be extremly interested in the 30 pages i'v searched online but couldn't find them...any other way of transfering the material?