A proposition to mix BG with SI

[Fresshness]

While I was replaying Ultima 7 BG and SI, I suddenly thought it would be very cool to have a 3rd main exult option to have both BG and SI maps available at the same time. I can see why it would have it downsides as SI is clearly not meant to have (for instance) a flying carpet in it's airspace; because of many 'cleaver' uses of 'mapspace' for many dungeons and such.

Wouldn't it be cool though? ;p

[Dominus]

would be cool, but would need a lot of work since so much is different between the two...

[Fresshness]

I see, but can you elaborate a little bit? I thought BG and SI were based on the same engine, as is demonstrated by Exult ;p

[Dominus]

the usecode of the games is different though that wouldn't need to be much of a problem since Exult know how to handle it, but then the art is not the same and would need a special treatment and so on...
And then when you think of it, it wouldn't make sense to be able to switch between BG/SI maps, thus the whole project would be senseless. A lot of work for not much too gain.

[Andrea B Previtera]

Also, suppose you succesfully mix the two worlds, flags, shapes, gumps, books, keys, spells, usecode - suppose you modify SI so that it has a proper map usage and you can travel by sea - suppose you mix conversations with shamino/iolo/dupre, you'd end with two batlins anyway. You'd end with lord british peacefully sitting on his throne, but at the same time informing you in the dream realm (with another portrait, btw) that britannia has been crushed by the guardian. You'd also end with two different portrait styles, two blackrock swords, and more.

Inconsistent plot, wrong dialogues, lots of unexpected plotstoppers... you'd end with ULTIMA IX !! : )

[HellRazor Dragon]

What might be doable and feasible though is an option to put you right into Serpent Isle at the end of the Black Gate....basically make it into one seamless game.

[Dominus]

but that just doesn't fit. between BG and SI is still Ultima Underworld 2, storywise

[Skutarth]

READ: SPOILERS IN THIS POST!

It would make more sense to split Serpent Isle into two maps so that it's possible to sail around. Then you could do things in a different order and you could add some subplots easily. It would make the gameplay coincide more with the non-linear gameplay of The Black Gate. I do realize that would change certain things, such as that you can get to Erstam's Isle before you meet his son, you can get to MoonShade without getting Hook out of jail, et cetera. There are ways around these compromises, though. You could, for example, take advantage of the fact that there are lightning storms like The Black Gate having the earthquakes preventing you from landing with your ship. You could have it only open parts of the world at certain times when there are not lightning storms at those places.

[SB-X]

There are ways around these compromises, though.

The biggest way around that is already there: the fact that you have no ship to sail around with. Your ship is wrecked, the ones at Fawn are wrecked, and Hawk wont let you captain his. (and then he wrecks it)
I'd say if you did open the oceans (and there are many more problems than those that ruin linearity) you should wait until the Banes are released and then fix one of those others. There won't be much point to it since you have the dark path, but claw isle will be available at least.

[Skutarth]

It would definitely make it more visually appealing if you happen to run at a higher resolution...

[Dominus]

running at higher resolution is still not advisable and not just because of the visuals...

[Andrea B Previtera]

I think we should merge black gate and serpent isle with Ultima 8, too. Also, ultima II with privateer, Ultima Underworld with doom II, and replace Buccaneer's Den with Monkey Island

[Gradilla Dragon]

How about Ultima IX and Ultima Online?

[drcode]

Sure! When you double-click the Kilrathi ship in BG, you could take off and join the Privateer universe:-)

[Belial]

yeah why not! through in the eldar scrolls and baldurs gate. that would make ultima 7 a really good game. lol

[Vasculio294]

Note: My idea is cloning the U7 map and adding it to Serpent Isle. Not actually bridgeing the two games together intirely.

1. Create a egg that acts as portal that links the custom Britianna Map to Serpet Isle.
Note: Going back to Britanna by ship is silly since the storms are dangerious.

2. I'd rescripted the Ultima 7 Map, given everone britianna new dialog.
Also i give everone in britianna a no portrait look, since BG and Serpent Isle faces don't match.

3. You will have to modify a certain area of britian, example: You going to have make a Light House and place it were there mint was.

4. The emps are going to have to be reduce.

5. You have edited cracks inside the castle, not sure if Lord British ment Foundation or Fountain?

6. The ships have to be disable.

7. The magic carpet is pretty fast. So i see the avatar using it again.

8. Re-recruiting BG party, might not be a bad idea if someone had talent in the art department and create SI style portraits for them.

I don't remember all that happen to britian story wise. So play Serpent Isle again.

[Wizardry Dragon]

It might be nice if the transition between Serpent Isle and Black Gate, and vice versa, could be handled through the engine.

Remember a few things:

1]: Travelling between worlds seems to weaken the Avatar and presumably anyone else who does it, which could explain for discrepancies in abilities between the two worlds. (Theoretically you could even make travel from SI back to BG possible, and maybe even have it so that you can go back and witness the calamities happening to Britannia while the Avatar is in the Serpent Isle.)

Items you bring with you to SI initially wouldnt matter, the intro takes them away anyways, it would just mean making the intro sequence more modular in terms of handling items.

2]: A lot of the plot of Serpent Isle was cut out of the original so it could be released. I want to see this plot restored insofar as possible before we go about a more major change, and bridging the two games would constitute such a change, IMO ^_~

3]: The Serpent Isle map was really, really horribly designed. Granted, it was designed to use a much smaller than optimal worldmap, but since we have multi-map support now, things like the Dark Path, underground areas, and so forth, should be split from the Serpent Isle map and put on a seperate map of their own. Map change eggs would be required for this.

4]: Spells - the spell systems for the two worlds are perfectly compatible from the player's standpoint, and from the 'flavour' standpoint, but when it comes to programming, it's my understanding that they get along a lot less amiably then appearances would have. Someone should redesign both systems so that they're much more modular. You could really take a page from Dungeons and Dragons here - design a bunch of spells, and then use the spellbook as a 'container' of sorts, which can only contain so many spells of a certain level. This would also let us bridge backwards, so to speak, and implement some spells from the older games that were cut out of newer ones. (Magic Missile away!)

5]: Item files - it would be neccesary to have the shapes files for both games merged. And this should be done whether you merge worlds or not, in my opinion, because it would make a lot of people very happy ^_~ Also, I really think it should be made easier to add entirely new shapes, monsters and buildings and items alike. Right now it requires a lot of guesswork to do anything other than NPCs, and even NPCs can be dodgy, especially when it comes to assigning them an AI.

6]: AI scripts/scripts in general - there should be something in Exult Studio to make and compile scripts. I mean, come on, how hard is it to make a notepad clone? It makes one less window to have open, and hey, bonus points if you can make it pick up on errors before compiling. Also, it would be nice to implement an 'Usecode Inspector' which would let us view the Usecode for eggs. Yes, it would require some work, but it would be much more convienent then looking at the raw code and trying to make heads or tails of it. As well, scripting be redesigned so we can have global game variables, instead of a hodepodge of flags. That was acceptable programming practice in early 90's games. This is not the 90's

On the note of global variables, remember how Ultima 5 had Karma? I always believed a structured morality like in Ultima 4/5 was what was conspicuously missing from Ultima VII/Serpent Isle. It would be easy (though would require some time and effort) to implement such a variable for Karma.

... I had more, but I'll let you guys read all that first ^_^

~ Wizardry Dragon

[Wizardry Dragon]

Oh, and as a postscript, I would like to express my vote in support for adding the 3D support that was shown in these forums many months ago to the main Exult tree ^_~

~ Wizardry Dragon