A look at Exult, from a simple viewpoint as Ultima Fan

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:42 am

Hello all at Exult-Team and all Fans!

So that you can recognize what i want to say and what i mean, i must go a little bit deeper. Please dont bother me for the lot of text that is following and read on.

First off, i wish to thank you all at Exult-Development-Team, for your fine work. I have many hours of fun with Exult-U7. The way i love it, is relatively simple, i love to play Ultima. And most, i love Ultima, because it is like it is. Ok, there are some things, where i ever wished that they are a little bit different, like the fighting-system in U7. I will like if it where more tactical, like in U6. Ok, thats a personal liking.
When U7 first came out, i have played U6 before and i loved this much, really much. And i have played it through the end. Then after a long time of waiting, U7 came to market. I was so excited, that i travelled 800km only to have it a day before it stands in the shops and i take some days of vacation, only to play this new Ultima! I know its a little bit wacky, but for my love i will do everything. Ok lets say near everything

I started playing and the first time i was intoxicated. I played about 80 hours and then stopped playing. Why did i do this you might ask.
At this time i have much to do with other things that demand my full concentration. What forced my decision was, that i was a little bit frustrated too, about U7, because i have U6 in mind. There where some things so different from U6, like the fighting system. But that was not the major reason. The major reason was, that i have not enough free time for playing.
Some years walked down the road and it comes the day where i crabbed U7 and installed it on a P166 with Win95 + DOS. The installation was not so different, but the game runs too fast. I used some tools to slow down my PC but that doesnt works well. So after a short time, i stopped again playing U7.
Years come and go and then some day i read about Exult. One more time i was exited, because i think that i now can play it on my PC. That was 2 years ago. At this time, the development of Exult was not advanced enaugh, to play U7 with a lot of fun. But i think that the Exult-Team will do a good job and some day i can play it like i wished. So i waited and from time to time i get the latest snapshot to test again. When then the Beta-Verison was relesead i think that now has the time come to give it a new chance. I know its Beta and there can be some bugs in the game, but i thinked, that at this point all is implemented, like in Beta-Stadium normaly is. So i started playing and the fun growth and growth.
But after a short time i realized, that some things quite not, as in the original. Specialy fighting and casting, kills some of the fun.

Sorry for the short

debauch. Now to the major Question i have.
After i have made a Post about the fighting system some days before,
i read the Exult-FAQ again and there i read that some things are not implement now or are a little bit buggy, like the fighting system and some spells. These are two things, that for my opinion be major tasks, because these kills a lot of fun with U7, especially the fighting system. But that alone will not be the problem. The problem is, that i have the impression, that you at Exult dont hurry up to fix this.

I know that Exult is Freeware and that you all do your jobs with it only for fun. And i can understand that there is coding to do, to fix the above mentionend bugs, that dont makes a lot of fun. I understand that other things will make more fun. And it is your right to do what you want.
But please dont forget that the majority of the people likes Exult and comes often here to your websites, because they wish to play Ultima 7 and for example, they dont want primarily to make own new games with Exult-Studio. Dont misunderstand me, i like Exult-Studio and when it is done i wish to use it, but more then this, i wish to play Ultima 7.

Please dont be angry with my explanations. I dont want everyone hurt
and maybe im wrong.

Last i want to say, that because im a developer by my own, if i can, i wish to help you to eliminate the problems with the fighting system.

Excuse my bad English, but im german

Thanks for your attention
MAC

Darkfist Dragon · Post by **Darkfist Dragon** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 4:09 am

I see nothing wrong with your post nor your english.
Though I am just a user and not a developer of Exult. (but I am from germany as well, though I no longer live there)

Post by **Dominus** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 4:45 am

MAC, in fact we appreciate it whenever someone takes a look at the code and submits patches to us.
So feel free to take a look at the source code (it'S also in the snapshot download section). I hope someone else can point you to the more combat related side of the source

Max · Post by **Max** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:39 am

Ok, I see some mistakes in your English, but as long as i understand what you say, it's RIGHT:) (i make mistakes too, i'm also German!)

I haven't played exult AND u7 that long to judge about the combat and stuff(i started with u8, sorry), but i also think that there are a lot of guys(non developers) around which could do some changes to the source, but don't. I would (at least try) if i could program in C++(up to learning it) and understand the code. but if i could i would instead of asking the developers just do what i want. (thats really no offense:), NOT pointing at you MAC)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:52 pm

Might be that only germans understand my english

If someone can send me the combat-source's, respective the source where is marked what parts of it is used for the combat-system, and with all appropriateted documentation, especialy the documentation of weapons.dat, i will take a look at it.

Post by **nadir** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:55 am

Heh, Mac, if someone did that it would be much quicker to implement a new combat system.
Anyway, back to the original question: the main goal for Exult at the moment is to fix bugs which affect the plot. This is what all development is focused on now until 1.0 (apart from ExultStudio, but that is a different story).
You are right, the combat and spell system are a good part of the game. But not of the story.
Maybe someone will "fix" the combat. Maybe not. That's the way it goes. Obviously our hope is that someone comes along and reworks the combat and then submits a patch...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:17 am

Every time when someone is speaking of the bad combat-system implementation, someone from the Exult-Developers will answer "It is no elemental part of the story!". But i think for lot of people that doesnt counts as you stated.

For me it is an elemental part of the whole game and therefore for the story too!

I will give you a good exeample that most of you know, Ultima Online. Today Ultima Online have lost a lot of thrill, and why?
Because of Trammel. In Trammel you can travell everywhere without any problems or that you must fear to encounter a battle against other players. At the first time when Trammel was installed from EA the most people where very happy. But it lasts not long.
I can remeber the days when i have started to playing UO and what a thrill it was when travelling alone from one city to another through the wilderness. And i hated this PK's a lot and doesnt was a fan of batteling against other players. But it was thrilling! And thats a part of having fun.

Same for me in Ultima 7. Without any fear for monsters that can hurt my party, there is a lot lost of the original game-concept.

So please reconsider.

The chance that someone will come along the way and say's "Hey thats what i have waited for, i will implemet the combat-system for Exult." is in my eyes more than improbably.

Clock Nova · Post by **Clock Nova** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:41 am

Actually, he has a good point. Playing U7 in Exult is, right now, a little like playing laser-tag with a machine gun. You just KNOW you're going to kill everybody so why bother playing at all. I find myself running around, solving plot points, but it's just SO easy because the combat is not properly implemented. This is why I am still holding out on playing the game all the way through.

Don't get me wrong. I love you guys. *sniff* This project is incredible. And I understand why you are working around the combat. But don't think that combat is unimportant to the plot, because that's not true at all.

Post by **nadir** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:11 am

So, instead of whining, why don't you submit a patch to fix it ?
Here are the simple steps:

Learn C++ (if you don't know it already)
Download Exult's source from CVS
Understand the parts of the source that handles combat
Understand where the original U7 stored data related to combat (attributes, etc.)
Write the C++ code to implement the original mechanism
Create a diff against the CVS tree
Send the diff to exult-general@lists.sf.net

Clock Nova · Post by **Clock Nova** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:28 am

Hmmm.

I tried to make it clear that I was NOT whining or even complaining, but I guess that I did not articulate that enough.

My point was merely that combat IS as important to the game as the plot. Elimintating either one would kill the game.

That's all I said. No scarcasm necessary.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:08 am

I fully agree with Clock Nova.

The target of this thread is only to discuss what point of view to the combat system may be better, not to anger someone of the Exult development team.

I think, that this topic can help us all. Like stated above, i dont want to claim, that my sight of this things is the only right.

I did a short look at the code, but the documentation is very spare. So it is very difficult for someone who was not involved with it since today.
So like i asked above it will help much if someone can send me the appropriated code with some more explanation how the whole combat is working and how some basics work.
And i think and read it anywhere, that some tools must exist, that can help to get informations out of weapons.dat. So it will be helpfull if that tools and documentation that not can be found in the source can be send to me too.

Post by **drcode** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:18 am

Spells: I'm not aware of any that aren't working. If you report one as a bug, it will probably get fixed.

Combat: Yes, it's too easy. But if I tweak the formula to give the bad guys more of an advantage, it might get too hard. The trouble we have with a volunteer project is that we might not hear that we've made it too hard until 3 weeks later, when someone finds that, in just one or two places, it's impossible to win. When that happens, we may not even remember what was changed that could have caused the problem.

In fact, we had that happen with the Vasculio scene in SI, which is still almost impossible to win if you don't have Magebane.

Maybe... we should have (yet another) user setting for 'Combat difficulty'.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:48 am

Spells:
Sorry than this was misunderstoud. In the FAQ you can read that some Spells not implemented. Maybe these should be updated.

Combat:
I agree with thee, that after making changes at the combat-system, these changes must be tested and verified .
I think it is possible, that someone who has completed BG and/or SI, played again through the known hard fights, to test the balance of a new combat-formula.
It can not be difficult to find such a person, or what do you think?
To test the standard fights, i will be pleased if i can help you testing new formulas.

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:04 am

MAC, just a small note:
You are asking for someone to send you the code and all the documentation we have. well, you could either get those via anonymous CVS access or much easier even, go to our download section and download the source snapshot. In there is all the code and everything we know...

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:09 am

@Dominus

This i have already done and thats not the point.
The point is liked i wroted two times before in this thread, that without any introducing to the code, it is very difficult to find all relevant code combat related.

The documentation that i have found in the source about weapons.dat and other U7-files, is really all you have?

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:59 am

Yeah, I guess that's all that is documented. Jeff probably has some more notes and thoughts. But those are probably just rough guesses and in no way documented

The problem I had was that you still asked for someone to send you the specific code that handles combat. Why do that if you already have it in the whole source?

And AFAIK it's no good to just change some code if you don't understand how the whole code works together. So it's really more like Nadir outlined...

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:07 am

One of the people on the mailing list suggested a sort of HACKING document to help out in these types of situations. Until one of those is
made, or paragraphs of descriptive comments are placed in the code, what I have done is to start at main() and work my way through the
source, taking notes, and following the paths of certain functions, and
examining specific classes and variables when I get to them.
Doing that, it could take a while for you to get to the specific area of
the program that you want to modify, but you will have learned a lot
along the way.

Post by **drcode** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:12 am

Look in the 'docs' directory of our source tree. The 'u7tech.txt' file, written by the fellow who did 'u7wizard', has lots of information (although not complete).

But if you want to know exactly what we know about 'weapons.dat' and 'ammo.dat', you will have to look at the source code in the 'shapes' directory.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:29 am

Thanks for the infos about the code.

I will take a look at the hitpoint-code, see if i can find something, that can help to solve the problems with the combat-system.

Post by **drcode** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:10 pm

BTW: Are you using Beta1, or the current snapshot? This problem was brought up by someone just after we released the Beta. Turned out that I was using 'experience' in the function to determine whether a hit had occurred (using Rogue as a model:-)). This wasn't fair to the monsters, since they never got to raise their experience like the Avatar and his party. Taking experience out of the equation did make the combat somewhat more reasonable.

Bongfish · Post by **Bongfish** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:25 pm

Although it's very unlikely that you haven't already seen this or worked it out, there's a FAQ on gamefaqs.com that lists all the weapons, ammo and armour and states how much damage they do. Assuming that you already know all of this, how is the combat in Exult different than the original? If people hit each other at the same speed as U7, using the same damage and chance to hit, where's the problem? Unless you haven't found the creature's hitpoints of course, because then I can see it being nasty.

Post by **drcode** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:32 pm

We do have all the stats now, and we use the same equation regardless of who is doing the hitting. In other words, combat should be 'fair'.

But there's always the possibility for bugs:

1. Are the monsters having their weapons/armor equipped properly?
2. Are they pathfinding correctly? I fixed a problem with this after the Beta release.
3. Most monsters have builtin armor and weapon points. Are we applying these?

Or we could have the formula for determining a 'hit' incorrect. If we're giving too much weight to armor, that might favor the Avatar and his party, since the non-human opponents generally don't have much.

I know that it's not totally messed up, as it's easy to get killed if you don't attack back.

Bongfish · Post by **Bongfish** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 3:29 pm

I might take a look at the code myself, I've done a small amount of 'professional' game programming in the past, although it was on the PSX and not the PC. Plus I prefer C to C++. C++ is for bitches.

Post by **drcode** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 3:40 pm

The original U7 was written in C++!

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:46 pm

@DrCode
I'm using always the newest available snapshot.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:19 am

I want to go back to the main topic of this thread.

Has anything changed your minds about the importance of the combat-system?

And what do you think about a redesign and if, when will this be done?

Post by **Dominus** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:16 am

I don't think that Jeff is against a redesign, in fact we had a lot of discussions about an alternative combat system on our mailinglist a while back.
But this (redesign) will only happen after the 1.0 release.
There may be little changes (like last night's change) but no big one. The chance of breaking too much is to big...

matt · Post by **matt** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:24 am

user defined combat difficulty=excellent idea! Best of both worlds for all (if it can be done...

Post by **wjp** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:45 am

Hmm, that's a pretty good idea.

What things would you like to be changed if you change the difficulty? (General discussion question...)

Decrease amount of damage that party does?
Increase amount of damage that party takes?
Same for change to hit?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:04 am

I agree, really good!

I think the best will be a combination of all of this. But it will be difficult to find the right combination.
How about 3 sliders, so that every player can find their own "best" combination? Standard setting can be all sliders in the middle, what means difficulty like now.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:17 pm

I hope it can be build in before realease 1.00?

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:35 pm

Post by **nadir** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:52 pm

As we said and repeated many times before, Exult is mostly in a bugfix mode at the moment (I won't say feature freeze, because we are not diligent enough

. It is unlikely that something like that would be implemented before 1.0.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:02 am

THAT IS A BUGFIX! same for the problem with respawning.

And thats the why:
In my understanding it was the target of Exult, to make U7 playable under Windows as near on the original as possible. Naturally without the Bugs in the original. So these two things are bugs, before they dont works as it should be.

What the hell is driving you to a release version?
I dont understand this.

Do you dont want to make it better then the commercial developers?
Their release-versions, in my eyes are only better beta-versions!

And come on in, it is little work for you, to build in, these three sliders to make combat-difficulty as a per user-setting.

And please dont say that i should do it by my own, if i want it now.
You can make it a lot easyier like every one from outside the development-crew of Exult. Its a thing of maybe an hour of work.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:09 am

And for me these two bugs are matter enough to dont play U7 with Exult any further now. Then i will wait until the next release version, after 1.00.

And i think that a lot of players want to have these two things fixed.

If you dont think so, maybe you can make a poll.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:20 am

The respawn issue could definately be considered a bug, but personally I
don't think the combat issue is as important as you think it is MAC. It
works for me, so what makes it a bug? Exult isn't trying to be exactly
like U7, it can improve on it. Naturally the combat will also be improved
...eventually, but if the developers don't see it as a priority at the moment, no need to rush it eh?

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:27 am

But if the users of Exult see it as a priority, it maybe should be your priority too, or not?

And is it not like i stated above, that it is little work to build in these 3 sliders?

Because i'm a developer by my own, i can measure the effort of build it in. So why do you make it so problematic?

Please help me to understand it.

And again, what is driving you to release 1.00 as fast as possible?

Post by **nadir** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:46 am

Mac, complaining about it is not going to get the issue solved. The solution ? Wait. It will get done. When ? Whenever someone has time. It seems to me you haven't understood how we work. Read the Docs and the FAQ.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:37 am

If this solution can not solve the problem, than you can find another solution that will do it.

I dont want to drive you to a solution, but if it will not be fixed, i'll take my personally consequence, that i willl wait for playing anymore until it is fixed. Even if you will have released a so called release 1.00. For me it is no release without that 2 problems solved, because i have no fun playing U7 like this, sorry. Fun while playing, is in my eyes the most important thing when playing!

I have hoped, that this thread have helped to make understand each other a little bit better. I understand that there are people that have another understanding of fun with a game like U7 and like it, like it is now. But i think that you should maybe dont forget these people like me, that are quite different.
Again, for me it makes only fun if there is a little bit of thrill, when wandering around in the wilderness or in Dungeons. If i feel like im wandering around in my living-room, it doesnt feel as it schould be and destroys a lot of fun.

Maybe i have made me no friends within the Exult-Develeopment team with my obstinacy. Im sorry about this, because the only thing that i want obtain, was to help a little bit.

I feel now like this help is not wanted. Or maybe help like mine is not wanted. And it seems to me, that my help is not wanted because i dont think like you think. It's a pity.

Dont think that i'm whining, but im very frustrated because i have hoped, and i have really hoped it much, that Exult is not like the big development companies. I have thinked, that what the usesrs want, counts for the Exult-Team.

When i read the posting from Nadir-Dragon i'll see alot of arrogance in it. Sorry Nadir but it sounds like this: MAC we make it when we want it, not when you little worm will have it. And nobody says us what we have done or not.
You forgot that without people like me, that helped to discover bugs in Exult only for fun of helping for a good sounding thing, you cant make Exult as good as with people like me. You forgot that you need us the same way that we needs you.

Please reconsider, i dont want it to end in this way.
If you think that i dont understand you, then please help me understand it but dont kick me in my ass like with your above posting.

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:40 am

MAC, as a user and a non-developer, I have no squirms to tell some stuff strait in the face.

IF YOU AIN'T HAPPY, DON'T MAKE OTHER UNHAPPY.

You don't like it, too bad. Stop playing and come back in 2 months. You are taking on yourself to say LOTS of users aren't satisfied with the combat sys.

While it might be *PARTIALY* true the combat is not at its BEST, it is still USEABLE. Combat in an rpg is important, but IT IS NOT A BE ALL END ALL.

I'm satisfied with the combat right now. I am not thrilled with it, but I think it works enough to get by.

So, I'll say it again: instead of bugging developers to death, especially when they replied to you and said it will be a post 1.0 thing, stop playing and come back in 2 months. Or even better, come back when 1.0 is out.

Again, I am NOT a developer so this post reflects my own personal ideas. Take offense if you want, I don't care.

Artaxerxes

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:43 am

I dont want any offence!

If you like it like combat now is, it's ok.
But please understand that there others out there, they dont.
What about a little bit more tolerance?

Post by **Dominus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:51 am

hm, MAC, I advise you to scan the forums of other FREE-software developers. People like you can be found there all the time.
Hanging out on the Trillian Forum (an IM-client) before the 0.7 release I saw exactly the same phrasing: "If you don't fix it now, I won't use it until it is."
And if you read on in these forums you will find that people that issue these "threats" are more likely to be ignored than taken serious.
You are a developer yourself, you said. Then take a look at the code and you will find that changing combat and respawn now will probably screw up the game in many ways, possible requiring a lot of playing through the game to weed out the resulting bugs.
As we wrote we consider Combat at the moment very unimportant at least not important enough to warrant that work.
We decided on some kind of "roadmap" and that is just that. No more features (and in regard to Exult, not U7, combat especially is a feature), only bug fixes so that after the 1.0 release we can have a little fun with Exult again, breaking stuff as much as we like....
Take into consideration as well, that we don't have the source of the original and that makes it so hard to do it the way the otriginal does things.
And also please understand Exult is FREE! We do this in our free time, mainly for fun and also to learn (in a way, eg. the Studio part). We have no obligation to the users to finish it in a certain way.
We certainly do appreciate the help of the users and in fact we rely on bug reports to find those bugs.
But reading your last posts it seems to me that you give yourself to much credit for this. You reported that combat doesn't work, well that is written in the FAQ for ages. You also found out about respawn problems, well look at the bug tracker and you will see that I reported one like this a couple of weeks ago. I don't want to belittle you but so far you only stated the obvious and you make it look like this was the biggest deed in the world.
So if you really want to help and get appreciated for it, take a look at the code and come up with a better combat system and tell us how to do it (a patch or at least developer language).

Post by **nadir** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:54 am

How am I being arrogant, sorry ?
The problem I have with your posts is that you are no longer "asking". You are "expecting". And that I don't like.
Do you know that both Jeff and I have full time jobs ? Do you know that Exult is a hobby for us ? It doesn't seem like it.
I didn't say your request won't be implemented. I'm just saying we don't know when.
So until then live with (out) it.
Sorry

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:15 am

First i wish to say, that i think, that this form of conversation will go a way that leaves to nothing but offence.

Dominus wrote:
I saw exactly the same phrasing: "If you don't fix it now, I won't use it until it is." And if you read on in these forums you will find that people that issue these "threats" are more likely to be ignored than taken serious.

@Dominus:
I dont want to threat. Thats only what i will do.
Please understand that i dont want to play U7 with Exult, only because i dont want to have lost the fun with U7 playing it the first time through the end. Then its better for me to wait until Exult is in a state wich i can play it as i like it. With that, i dont want to extort you. Sorry if you have misunderstoud this.
Cant you really understand, why i will do it this way?

Dominus wrote:
And also please understand Exult is FREE! We do this in our free time, mainly for fun and also to learn (in a way, eg. the Studio part). We have no obligation to the users to finish it in a certain way.

@Dominus:
I'll test for you too for free, in my free time! What do you think? Only i have waited to test Exult, so that i have something to do?

Dominus wrote:
But reading your last posts it seems to me that you give yourself to much credit for this. You reported that combat doesn't work, well that is written in the FAQ for ages. You also found out about respawn problems, well look at the bug tracker and you will see that I reported one like this a couple of weeks ago. I don't want to belittle you but so far you only stated the obvious and you make it look like this was the biggest deed in the world.

@Dominus:
Ok, i'll understand now fully.
Sorry for finding some bugs, that was found from others before. I will never do it again.
But one last question is burning me under the nails: Why is there no active task in the Bug-Tracker for this always, from others, found Bugs?

@Nadir
Should i expect nothing from Exult?
As a team-member i can expect something. But who is in the team?
I'm not, or no more, or never was

... i must have misunderstood the definition of a team. But whats with the other people hanging around here, doing testing for free for you. Did they have nothing to expect for the work that they do? Or is all that they can expect, to get the software maybe for free?

More and more, it sounds if you are the meaning, that you dont need people like me, that come here to help you with your project.
Before this thread, i was thinking that we all together are the team. But now i know, the team are you and we are only visitors. We are willingless slaves that have to follow your directions or to leave.
And your first directive is, that the last word have the gods of the Exult-Team never any visitors. Second is, visitors have nothing to expect.

Thanks for your enlightment.

I'm really sorry that the discussion goes in this direction.
The good is, that these brings up the true character of some people and that it discovers someones true intentions.

Post by **Colourless** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:48 am

We are not a commercial operation. There are no obligations on our part to do anything for you. Nor are there any obligations on your part either.

Yes we need beta testers, however we did not come to your house and force you to Beta test Exult for us. It's your decision in the end. If you don't like it, don't use it.

-Colourless Dragon

Post by **nadir** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:53 am

Quoting the GPL:
NO WARRANTY

11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY
FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN
OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES
PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED
OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF
MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS
TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE
PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING,
REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

12. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING
WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR
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OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED
TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY
YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER
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Post by **Dominus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:03 am

MAC:
>Please understand that i dont want to play U7 with Exult, ...
>Cant you really understand, why i will do it this way?

@Mac:
Sure I do understand you. And it is your right to do so and I'm certainly not offended if someone doesn't want to Exult. A lot of people don't and I don't hold grudges at them.

MAC:
Ok, i'll understand now fully.
>Sorry for finding some bugs, that was found from others before.
>I will never do it again.

@Mac:
I just wnated you to understand that reporting known bugs doesn't help much as we already know about them and will look at them in due time.

MAC:
>But one last question is burning me under the nails:
>Why is there no active task in the Bug-Tracker for this always,
>from others, found Bugs?

@Mac:
huh? I don't understand that sentence. You know about the tracker, right? It's at http://sourceforge.net/bugs/?group_id=2335
In the tracker is specified who submitted the bug and who is assigned to the bug. You can also browse all the closed bugs and see some response to them. Perhaps you meant that.

MAC:
>As a team-member i can expect something. But who is in the team?

@Mac:
I thought this is clear from http://exult.info/about.php
The Exult team are the developers of Exult. The developers, the fans, the users, the forum users are the "Exult community" (certainly not the fellowship).

MAC:
>More and more, it sounds if you are the meaning, that you dont
>need people like me, that come here to help you with your project.
>Before this thread, i was thinking that we all together are the team.
>But now i know, the team are you and we are only visitors. We are
>willingless slaves that have to follow your directions or to leave.
>And your first directive is, that the last word have the gods of the
>Exult-Team never any visitors. Second is, visitors have nothing to expect.

@Mac:
Phew, slow down and take a deep breath. In non-commercial software it is always that the developers have the last say in the direction it goes. We are not getting paid for this work and therefore decide when, how and what we implement into the code. We (the developers) are not the willingless slaves that have to follow YOUR directions. What do you think is more demanding, playtesting or codeing? Please read the thread again.
We said that combat will get better and we even said when. So what you can expect is that you will have a 1.0 version of Exult with almost no bugs and a post-1.0 version with better combat, spawning and lots more features.
Please understand Exult: We are reverse engineering U7 to make it playable on nearly all platforms used nowadays. We are scattered across the world, we don't have a company, we don't have the means to hire beta testers that don't do nothing except testing.
So, we need the members of this community to report bugs and this is mutual beneficial. You want a perfect Exult and we want a perfect Exult.
But you must also accept that we can only improve this in due time.

What I would like to add to the combat issue is that U7 is more about the story than combat for most of Ultima fans. Most view U7 as the best Ultima but most also view the combat system as annoying. Go to google and read the posts of rec.games.computer.ultima.* of the past 10 years and you will see what I mean.
You may then understand why the focus is on being able to enjoy the story instead of the combat.

Post by **wjp** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:17 am

MAC wrote: (re. difficulty levels)
If this solution can not solve the problem, than you can find another solution that will do it.
--

We did not say this wasn't a proper solution. In fact, we think it's a good idea, and it's very likely we will implement it. However, nobody can say exactly when.

Currently, we're fixing bugs until 1.0. Some big fights being too easy is a bug, and DrCode made adjustments to the hitpoint calculation algorithm because of it. It probably isn't perfect yet, but that's just because combat balance is a very complex thing. (Just look at the huge amount of post-release tweaks to combat in most modern RPGs)

The lack of a user-definable difficulty setting is not a bug. It's a good idea, but it will have to wait a while.

MAC wrote:
---
@Dominus:
I'll test or you too for free, in my free time! What do you think? Only i have waited to test Exult, so that i have something to do?
---

We both know and appreciate you are spending time to make Exult a better engine. We also listen to, respond to, and take into account your comments and suggestions.
However, in the end, our time is still our time, and we decide what to do with it, just like you decide what to do with your time. If you decide to spend that time on Exult, great!
However, you can't use that as an argument for trying to demand things from others.

MAC Wrote:
----
Should i expect nothing from Exult?
As a team-member i can expect something. But who is in the team?
I'm not, or no more, or never was

... i must have misunderstood the definition of a team. But whats with the other people hanging around here, doing testing for free for you. Did they have nothing to expect for the work that they do? Or is all that they can expect, to get the software maybe for free?
----
This is just a game with words. On this board, the term "team" has come to mean the people mentioned in the "About Us" page on our webpage.You could also call the entire Exult community a 'team', and in a way it is, since we're all working toward the common goal of making Exult better.
Being on the "team" or not doesn't make a much of a difference in what you can expect though. I can't expect Jeff, Ryan, Tristan, Max, Dominik or any of the others to do something any more than you can.

This does not mean that my, or your, suggestions about enhancements go unheard. It just means everyone gets to decide for him- or herself when to do what.

Post by **Darke** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:24 am

Ooooh, I didn't know about this! *bounce* From the GPL:

"SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY
SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION."

In which case sure I'll fix combat! *nod* Given that I'll need to be touching
code inside exult, that despite myself being a developer I've never actually
touched nor looked at before. In fact honestly, I wouldn't have a clue where it
might be. My fee will be a little higher then my normal contracting jobs, say
US$10,000 for completely rewriting the entire combat engine.

I will, however, like all good shrink wrap licenced commercial products, not
guarantee fitness for any particular application, nor that it will actually do
what you want it to. In other words, I'm not even going to guarantee it will
actually be 'difficult' enough for you.

Parties interested in hiring myself for such a task can contact me on the
address above.

Darke
(Hint: I may not be serious. *grin*)

Post by **wjp** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:27 am

US$10,000? Hmm, I don't think we can afford that... I mean, we're already over $3M in the red...