A look at Exult, from a simple viewpoint as Ultima Fan

Post by **nadir** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:29 am

Darke: you actually mean that your combat subsystem might not support combat at all, but it might actually do something useful, like preparing a nice cup of coffee ?

I don't have $$$ but I have 10000 filari, if that's alright with you

Post by **Colourless** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:31 am

Hey US$10,000 is pretty cheap for a game engine programmer. Especially when rewriting something as complex as a combat engine.

-Colourless Dragon

Post by **Darke** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:37 am

Nadir: Actually I think I'd much rather have it make me a nice cup of coffee,
then be an actual combat system, even if I'm only going to get 10000 filari out
of it. I'll think it over. *grin*

Post by **nadir** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:13 am

Monetari ? Guilders ? I have lots of those. I also have a stack of lockpicks if you're interested

Post by **artaxerxes** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:16 am

I also have a nice fur hat, second-hand, previously owned by a hot mage chick. Can't say no to that!

Artaxerxes

Post by **drcode** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:57 am

Whew. Looks like all the fireworks happen at night while I'm sleeping.

The only thing I can add (again) is a little about respawning: In all the cases I've looked at, it's not a bug. Firing up the original and going to the same spots, I see the same behavior.

Okay, I lied; here's another: Improving combat is a post-1.00 goal. But a higher priority, which a LOT more users have complained about, is fixing the way the companions follow the Avatar.

Finally, to confirm what WJP said about the recent combat change: It really was a bug. I was taking the attacker's strength, and dividing it by 4 to get extra hit points. But then I was dividing it again in another place. It should have only been divided once (and I've changed it to 3).

Post by **Darke** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:12 am

DrCode: It looks like it. *grin* Here, have a 'nice' cup of coffee to wake you
up.

Nadir: Yes, but they're probably all fake. Lockpicks might be useful though...

Artaxerxes: Yes I can. 'No'. If you throw in the 'hot mage chick', or perhaps
Buggs from SI, you'll have a deal. *grin*

Darke
(Also a picky bunny...)

Matthew in rainy guildford · Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:19 am

Time to open the bar again i think Dominus! Make mine a newcastle brown.
I've had a chuckle reading this lot. Cheers! Oh, no fighting in the pub although i hope the beer re-spawns!

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:48 am

I think we, or some, have completely misunderstoud, or i'm really crazy

Until my message from 02-19-02 18:17, all is well. At this point it seems to be, that we have found a solution for the combat-problems.

All i then asked is, that i hoped it can be buil in before release of 1.00.

Then following some post of developers that says something thats sounds for me like this: No, we dont do it now. Whatever you will say we dont do it.

After these posts i stated that my meaning is, that the combat-system is buggy and so need to be fixed. And that it is not much work to build in these 3 Sliders! And that i dont want to play U7 via Exult, with these, in my eyes, Bugs.

Here must be the first misunderstoud. That statement was never be meant as threat. I only want to say how urgent it is for me and that for me, without a fixed combat system, the fun playing U7 the first time through the end, is not so much that i want to play it now. And that i think, that others thinking the same way. 've never meant that i dont want to play U7 with Exult. Only that i then will wait until these fixes are made, but only if it is in sight for me.

I have thinked that, because you dont see it like me and others that will have a better combat-system, i can bring it to your mind that it is more urgent then you think of.

Then some flaming against me begun. I dont want enumerate them now.

Perhaps i can make some things that i think clear:
1. The combat system in original U7 was in my eyes not good, but it gives a little bit of thrill.
2. The combat system in Exult is nothing better, on the contrary it is worse. There is zero thrill.
3. For me in an RPG is the combat not the most importent thing, it's the story.
4. A good game consists of many aspects and within an RPG should be at last, behind the story, a good combat system and more. Its lastly all togehter what makes a game good.
5. I never want to threat you to anything.
6. I cant understand why you dont put in these three Sliders. Because it is not much work to do but can make people like me, that prefers combat more than you do, more happy with Exult.
7. All i want to reach is that you perhaps reconsider. Not because i said it but rather because there is another sight of seeing that you perhaps so far, not regard enough.
8. I'm very happy that you guys make something like Exult. Because without, i'll not be able to play U7 like with Exult.
9. U7Run is in my eyes not a really good alternative. But, and please dont understand this as a threat, when you dont fix the combat system before realase 1.00, i will play U7 with U7Run because i dont want to wait until a solution will be implemented anytime after release 1.00 and i dont have any idea when this will be.
10. I want Exult! And i'm willing to help where i can to make it possible as fast as possible to play U7 with it, with most possible fun.
Thats a lot of possible

But one thing i must say again. I thinked we are all together the team. In a manner like wjp it described above. It's no question that you, the developers of Exult, the more important members of this team and that your word weights more than this of others. What you call the community are in my eyes team-members that have lower ranks or that plays minor roles in the team, but they are in a team with you. You cant without them and they cant without you. Thats a team and you shall understand it like this.

No one and me too says, that you dont have the last word. But when you makes me feel like i may nothing require what is not like you want and that there is no chance that you will follow my recommendation only because you are the developers that have the last word without further discussion, then i dont want to spend any more time with you. And thats what i feeled like after some of you have made your posts.

I'll hope we can find a better way to communicate and can find a common base to work together for our all hobby.

If i have someone offended in this thread, you may excuse me.

Matthew in rainy guildford · Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:58 am

Oh come on, they've already said that they will look into the combat after 1.00 release? You are under no obligation to use exult, it is the exult team who are doing us the service by creating such great software!
What if Exult didn't exist? We wouldn't even be having this conversation!
Give them time, patience is a virtue Avatar!

Bongfish · Post by **Bongfish** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:13 am

I can't believe you're complaining so much. (And you are, this isn't constructive). There's a difference between 'us' and 'them'; all we're doing is sitting on our collective asses playing a free game and whining about bugs.

I've programmed games for a software company in the past, and it's not fun. If I'd known about Exult from the start of the project I would have been happy to work on it, but there's no way I'm digging through that mountain of code to fix trivial bugs for people who complain as much as you do, and I'm sure the developers feel the same way.

Hell, I'm not too happy about the combat either. It makes hunting for new armour and magic weapons pointless when you can just beat people to death with a rake, but if you (or me) can't be bothered to submit patches to fix it, we'll just have to wait.

Keep up the good work, you l33t Exult hax0rs.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:00 pm

MAC: Don't you realize that to get a drastic improvement in the combat system, and implementation of slider-bars, one of the team members would have to stop what they are doing right now to work on it? Do you really want to halt development/stabilization on a larger scale so that you can have this one feature right now, instead of waiting a few months?
If you don't know anything about how monster combat and gumps are currently handled in Exult, how can you exclaim that you just "know" it wouldn't take very long to add? It is something to think about, please do not take offense at my comments. I am just a grateful user myself, and my opinions may not reflect those of the "team".

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:58 pm

Why can't the combat be tweaked before version 1.0? Why does there even have to be a version 1.0? Is that some kind of point where you're going to focus more on Exult Studio?

Post by **Darke** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:28 pm

(Combat Tweaking) As mentioned previously in one of these threads, modifying
anything relating to combat means that we need to get people to run though both
entire games to make sure that we haven't unbalanced any of the combats,
especially the key combats. Not being able to defeat a 'key' creature stuffs up
the entire game, having 'not as good as hoped' combat just means you're getting
a little less 'fun' out of the combat.

Me, I hated the combat in the original, and always grabbed the armour/weapons
out of the trinsic 'cheat' room, just so I could get combat over quicker without
having to worry about dying all the time. *grin*

(v1.0) No particular reason. We don't even have to have 'Beta's either. *shrug*
'The Exult Team' just decided that v1.0 will come, IIRC, when all the plot
stopper and game stopper bugs have been ironed out, there's no glaring rendering
errors and the code is relatively stable for both BG and SI, and also that the
basics of exult_studio are worked and mostly implemented.

That is, AFAICT, what is happening at the moment. Altering the combat code, even
a little, will potentially have a _large_ effect on stability, thus part of the
reason above.

notAdragon · Post by **notAdragon** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:50 pm

Hey Mac, I want to say that I'm just another Exult user, and I think
combat diffculty can wait until after 1.00 beta.

You yourself said in yor point 3 that to you story is the most important
element of an RPG. Well, right now there are plot-stoppers in the game
which makes people unable to play the story at all. Plot stopper is
something that makes the game very NOT fun, where as the combat
issue (and the respawn issue) just makes the game less fun. I think
this is what everyone else who is against you is saying.

In fact, so far I only hear from you saying that combat is one of the
critical components of U7 and should be fixed asap. I'd bet if all the
exult users can cast votes to issues they want to see Exult fix first,
combat will NOT be one of the top issues.

Making changes to the combat system is easy. Making the right changes,
and test them to make sure they work and don't break other things
(especially the plot, the story), is a very big mess.

Exult team isn't part of a big game develepement coperation, so they don't
need to listen to the manager-who-knows-nothing, and have freedom in
doing what they want.

Likewise, Exult team isn't part of a mini gaming startup company that they
need to make every single user happy in every single way. So they don't
need to listen to the user-who-knows-everything.

The exult team consists of full time salary people (and maybe full time
students?), who don't have 8 hours a day devoted to exult (assuming
they sleep from time to time). They are volunteers who decide to do this
because they feel like doing it. And yes, because they feel like doing it
when they are doing it. So yes, they do have to right to say "we'll
fix it when we think we should fix it, else you fix it."

The flaming kinda started when your language became quite strong and
people feeling that their right to say the above is being denied. I
can understand your frustration, but other people are being frustrated
by your "expectation".

I think it's a good thing you spoke up about your views on the importance
of combat. Just remember the rights other people have, and we'll all
be happy. If an overwhelming majority of people do reflect that getting a
thrill out of combat is more important than playing a game without
plot stoppers, then maybe, just maybe, some person on the exult team
will decide to not work on fixing plotstoppers anymore, and fix combat
for you guys. But again, no one on the exult team HAS to do anything
for any number of people.

that's my twenty guilders (they really are depreciating fast!!!)

notAdragon,
aka norApremium

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:09 am

I think this is a problem from both sides of the party.
MAC was much TOO eager to get things going, whilst wanting an assurance from one of the developers to get the feature implemented. However so far only DrCode gave the assurance, his extent only that he will do it someday. Nadir simply reiterated that exult was free and the developers could do as and when they like.

I think Nadir was mean to testers in this sense, although I agree developers were more important to the project.

With most of the developers taking their own sides, I regret we will soon lose another exult fan. (refer to Ravenous Dragon example)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:33 am

@Darke

You wrote:
Altering the combat code, even a little, will potentially have a _large_ effect on stability, thus part of the reason above.

I cant agree with you fully, and thats why:
Maybe

, if someone

build in three sliders that will affect the following:
1. Increase/Decrease amount of damage that party does
2. Increase/Decrease amount of damage that party takes
3. Increase/Decrease party's chance to hit
you can make it without any potentially stability loss, because if the sliders will stay at the middle position, all is like now (no effect).
These sliders was first mentioned from wjp and DrCode.
The only reason for potentially bugs are then in the slider-code itself. And i think that this will be no big potentially problem.

@notAdragon
I think that a good RPG game consists of much more than a good story. Story, graphics, sound, combat-system and last but not least the atmosphere, these all together in harmony can make a really good RPG. The primary point for me is not the combat system itself, it is that what the combat-system affected.
I want to slip down in this great fantasy-world. I want to feel like i'm really there. And something like the combat system like it is now, makes this a little bit more difficult, because there is no potentially harm. And other things like getting a great treasure (consists of weapons and armor) at the end of a difficult dungeon, makes no sence if there is no harm. Because for what should i need these weapons and armor i have been rewarded with?
I dont want to claim that the combat-system is the number one to fix. I agree with you that things like plotstopper-bugs are more important.

Post by **Dominus** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:35 am

>you can make it without any potentially stability loss, because if the
>sliders will stay at the middle position, all is like now (no effect).

But you know the thing is that if we implement this we have to be sure the game still works for those that don't leave the sliders on this setting.
What about users like you that have the slider all the way to hard and later run into a plot stopper because of this, don't realize it is because of the combat difficulty and we have to think hard where the problem lies.

And as long as you didn't take a look at our code you cannot say it is too easy.

Bottom line is that you haven't been able to sway the thoughts of the developer team to do it before 1.0

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:52 am

First i think whoever changes the position of the sliders do that by their own risk. Its something like playing with a higher resolution.

By default the sliders can be disabled. In the documentation of Exult you find the hint for activate them via the cfg-file and that changing of difficulty can result to run in unbeatable situations in the game and that you do it by your own risk.

Second, im wrong when i said, that if someone has changed the settings of the sliders and runs into an unbeatable fight, must remember that he/she has changed the combat setting?
And to solve the fight he/she can simple adjust the difficulty back to normal at this point.

Post by **nadir** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:10 am

One small problem: sliders are gumps on their own, so they can't (currently) be embedded in other gumps

Post by **artaxerxes** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:33 am

Arta: MAC, you just don't get it, do you... You don't.
MAC: It's no hass...
A: Shh.
M: But...
A: Shh.
M: Oh..
A: Shh.
M: All I'm sayin...
A: Shh.
M: They gonna get awa....
A: Shh.
M: I..
A: Shh.
M: I've....
A: Shh.
M: We've....
A: Shh.
M: You'd....
A: Shh. Knock Knock
M: Who's ther...
A: Shh.
M: Look...
A: Shh. Let me tell you the story about the man named Shh
M: ...
A: Shh.. Even before you start. That was a preemptive Shh. Just know I've got a whole bag of Shh with your name on it.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:00 am

@Nadir
What if the sliders be built in under the main menu, in section "Setup" of Exult?

Or maybe instead of using sliders it can be used numerical values, ranging from -10 to +10.

Post by **nadir** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:32 am

Well, we could have cycle-buttons like those in the Video Options menu

Post by **drcode** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:18 am

Yes, a single cycle-button would be fine. That's exactly how Wing-Commander 3 works.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:19 am

I know that you are nerved by my obtrusive about this

Still no chance for implementation before release 1.00?

I have hoped that the discussion in this thread has changed your point of view about the importence of the user-definable combat-difficulty.

If i'm wrong, please let me know it, and i will not further ask about this.

Post by **drcode** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:26 am

I'm thinking about it... It might start out as an option in exult.cfg:

3

where the values are something like:

0: 'god' mode (you can't lose)
1: Wimp
2: Easy
3: Normal
4: Hard
5: You better be Arnold Schwarzenegger or Lucy Lawless

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:01 am

Do you DARE compare Arnold Schwarzenegger to Lucy Lawless? I mean, Conan vs. Xena... I think we all know who'd win that fight.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 2:49 pm

@DrCode

Sounds good for me.

Jon Miller · Post by **Jon Miller** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:18 pm

Wow... this thread is hysterical. Reminds me of one of those inflatable punching guys with sand in the bottom, that just keep bouncing back. Hope that's not saying too much, now that a stasis seems to have been reached. Although I'd gladly watch another episode. Anyway, Exult developers, your patience is most impressive.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 11:45 pm

Arnold also played Hercules, speaking of odd coincidences with Xena.

Soule · Post by **Soule** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 5:23 am

MAC,
Now that the combat difficulty has been adjusted earlier due to your violent protests, are you going to do anything to thank the team?
Like making patches of grass?

Post by **drcode** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 7:17 am

It's okay, I've finally gotten the hang of it:-)

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:40 pm

Speaking of Arnold playing Hercules...

Anyone ever see Arnold's first American film? He played Hercules in the Roman mythology. I am aware that Hercules was Greek. The gods, save for Zues, were Roman (Mercury, Pluto, etc.).

His voice was dubbed since he could barely speak English. It was rather funny. I saw it one evening when "out-of-commission" after an alcoholic fun-spree.

Xena could kick Arnold's tail. She does all the ninja moves and such (flying about whooping upon various bad guys).

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 1:05 pm

1. It's Zeus
2. All the Roman gods were the Greek gods, except that they just
changed all the names. Zeus -> Juno, Hermes -> Mercury,
Aphrodite -> Venus, etc.

Arnold's first movie was pretty funny, though.

Post by **wjp** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 1:08 pm

That's Jupiter, not Juno

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 8:34 pm

I used Juno free Internet service once a few years ago.
It really sucked, but was better than NetZero.

suraimu · Post by **suraimu** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 11:43 pm

Juno, Jupiter, same thing. One's in english the other is in latin.

Post by **nadir** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 11:54 pm

No, suraimu, Juno is Jupiter's wife

Post by **wjp** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 12:15 am

Yeah, Juno is the roman version of Hera.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 5:19 pm

@Soule

Sorry for my absence and that i was on holiday without asking you

I'm still working on a patch-graphics-set. It now will include some trees.
Next i will do, is some more trees, especially the conifers looking really bad.
Then i will make the grass and water.

There is a website, where you can see some of my works, but this site will go online again at the end of the week, because i have changed to another webspace-provider.

If i made the relocation, here you can look for it: http://www.4gamers.de/projectX/

A download of what is done now, will be available at next week, if all is going well.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Fri May 03, 2002 2:54 am

Just bringing up this old post for the sake of it being 90 posts big!

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri May 03, 2002 6:11 am

LOL.

I never saw all the posts after my Arnold one.

Ok, so I spelled Zeus wrong. Oopsy.

And I meant that the gods had their Roman names instead of their Greek ones.

Since, it was Hercules, the gods should have had Greek names, not Roman.

Arnold also wrestled a guy in a bear costume in Central Park. I almost plotzed.

Lance · Post by **Lance** » Fri May 03, 2002 5:00 pm

Wow, this post has sprung up almost to 100!
Keep posting and get it there!

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Sat May 04, 2002 4:14 pm

Yeah, I think this post is just a prime example of someone giving out constructive critism and Exult team hating it. We are still important so don't forget that.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Sun May 05, 2002 12:39 am

just keeping it alive...

XxVenomxX · Post by **XxVenomxX** » Sun May 05, 2002 5:46 am

Why? I mean, this post had a reason when it was created, and it lived it's course, then died naturally.
It's not like it's anywhere near the length of the horrid Spark thread.

SB-X · Post by **SB-X** » Sun May 05, 2002 1:27 pm

He he, it sparkles like a giant candle.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Sun May 05, 2002 8:02 pm

ewww...

Post by **artaxerxes** » Mon May 06, 2002 3:59 am

nothing will beat the 200+ posts for Spark's shiny pants....

I've got the HTML from it btw... Saved it just before Colourless deleted the post sloppily.

Artaxerxes

Post by **nadir** » Mon May 06, 2002 4:20 am

MAC did have some good points in this post, but he also claimed that because of the fact that combat was not identical to the original, it made Exult unplayable from his point of view. Which was a funny statement, because combat in U7/SI was just pathetic and one of the worst aspects in an otherwise perfect game. We (and our fans) complained mostly because of this, while promising to make the combat much better post 1.0.

Daniel, it seems that you have a problem with not receiving due attention on this forum and you are doing everything you can to change that.
Please stop it and grow up.