Netherworld in U7

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:56 am

Is anybody interested in a mod like this. Basically, if the avatar dies, he would be relocated to a "real" land of the dead. And the avatar has to find his way back. I can make the map, but don't know anything about code or such. I can make pixal art ok enough. The idea is that it is another quest.
I think the way BG handles dying is rather lame. The enemy saves him? And otherwise can never be found until the end.
I beleive death is too easy to recover from in BG and the solution would be to make coming back to the living a challenge. In several ultima's it was hinted that old enemies already living in the land of the dead were waiting for the avatar. It would resemble something like the swamp that puts the avatar to sleep. There is a quest there and the avatar does not have to complete it right away if she/ he chooses not to.
Ideas, liche Horance has a home there too, maybe, or an army and generals awaiting his commands. Maybe horance can seek to recruit the avatar for things to do in the land of the dead. So all the old enemies can be there too. Like minax and mondain and such.
Also, maybe make a new sprite that is a ghost avatar.
Only thing is, how to handle dying in the land of the dead. I figure a starting point can be a captured soul. and the avatar breaks free initially to find his way 'out'. And if he dies down there, he can just be returned to being an imprisoned soul.
I will make the map, but thats all I can do. Maybe make a ghost sprite avatar. But I couldn't do anything else in making this mod work.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:10 am

I think that sounds pretty awesome. I love the idea of past enemies showing up in the netherworld seeking revenge. And possibly potential allies who show up down there too who might be trapped? I did some code to change the Avatar's resurrection to Lord British's throneroom so I could help you on that. Email me and I can help you out with that. agentorangeguyatyahoodot com.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:03 pm

Sounds like a great idea for a mod; but a point to keep in mind. Remember that anyone who plays it straight without the cheats involved will be dying quite alot.. So the land of the dead will by necessity need to have a default 'quick path back to britannia', Maybe it could be several fixed trigger points, some nearby and others elsewhere at which LB 'senses' the avatars demise and resurrects him on the spot.. Can't move them otherwise people would eventually get frustrated and stop playing who like the idea of playing the mod; but for whatever purpose just want to return to regular BG asap, and continue on the game, without spending 10 minutes every time they die looking for the way out. The rest sounds fine once they are prepared to do the death side quest.

Just don't make it too much like "The Gorlab Swamp" Where it takes a long time to find the fires that allow you to awaken from the dream!
You may even want to make the 'way out' a shrine of some sort that represents the combined virtues of the avatar; that only one virtuous such as the avatar can effectively use it..

Peg

Post by **Dominus** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:07 pm

Yeah, nice idea but only for dying once

Because AFAIR, EA doesn't resurrect you but find you very close to death.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:49 pm

Yeah, they find you close to death and drag you to the paws poorhouse in their cart.. But even I have to admit that janna'scurse is correct when she/he, (sorry)

stated that the very people that are saving you are the very ones that not only try to kill you in the end; but you are actively hunting them in connection with ritual murders! I never liked how your companions are supposed to be 'in the know' on this information, yet every time you are recovering in the poorhouse, they sit there explaining to you how GRATEFUL they are that E&A happened to come along to save you.. With 7 companions you think they could do a much better job themselves... Or, try to apprehend E&A for questioning in the murders since half the game is predicated on the 'cat and mouse' game of looking for them!

I mean really, imagine the dialogue of your party when the Avatar takes a dive!

Iolo: "The avatar is dying, what do we do?"

The others just stare at him dying in the mud dumbfounded and empty headed until E&A appear out of nowhere...

Iolo: "Look, the very murderers we've been searching for all over Britannia! Instead of capturing/killing them for their crimes, lets let them cart the avatar away to a bed in a poorhouse!"

All the other companions combined go "Duh, sounds good to us!"

Ridiculous...

Even if they are on direct orders from the Guardian to save you from dying, they ignore all that in the BG room and make a group decision to kill you outright..

The funny thing, if you die while fighting the fellowship gang in the black gate room, E&A STILL save you and bring you to paws so that you can recover so that you can go right back to trying to kill them again.. it's crazy!

I think Richard Garriott was having an seriously off day when he thought of this one. Why didn't he simply have LB resurrect you as always..

Thoughts?

Peg

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:01 pm

And, more importantly; is this hard coded, or can this be altered to have a more traditional LB resurrection?

Peg

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Oh, let me preface all this by stating that I do understand the original reasoning behind it all.. It was of course meant to place a seed of doubt in the players mind as to whether or not E&A were really as evil as the NPC's said they were since they keep saving the player every time he takes a nosedive to the pavement.

That said, even first time players realize after they discover Hook's hit list book that the Fellowship has the Avatar targeted for termination; second only to LB himself; along with the others that have already been taken out... It's at this point that this part of the game engine breaks down and takes it's own nosedive, since dying even after learning all this results in the same 'resurrection scene'... That's when people start asking, "Why do the very people who want me dead keep saving me?"

Sorry I couldn't edit an earlier message to include this.. (I know Dom, admin perk only.)

Peg..

Janna'sCurse · Post by **Janna'sCurse** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:25 pm

Author: agentorangeguy "And possibly potential allies who show up down there too who might be trapped? I did some code to change the Avatar's resurrection to Lord British's throne room so I could help you on that"

Me: Awesome! I wonder if we can recode the actual "land of the dead" to utilize the mod land of the dead, and find your fallen companions down there. But like the trinsic blacksmith who is contacted in SI, maybe find him. Thanx for the help. When finish it I will touch base.

Author: Pegbyter "anyone who plays it straight.. will be dying quite a lot... need to have a default 'quick path back to Britannia'
LB 'senses' the avatars demise and resurrects. you may even want to make the 'way out' a shrine of some sort that represents the combined virtues of the avatar;

Me: Yes, a quick way back. Maybe have several. One can be instant. Was thinking that as long as you have iolo, he can do a resurrection. A shrine of all virtue is wonderful idea. Genius. A shrine in the land of the dead. which could be the central quest to the area. But I would make several ways back. maybe lots. And it would encourage the player to seek out the fastest way back. And the first known should be short be short anyways.

Author: DominusMobile2 for dying once

Me: Well, what if a return to Britannia places you where you died? I don't know how feasible that is in code. If variables can be set. Then you could get right back in the action of BG.

Author: Pegbyter he/he, (sorry)

stated that the very people that are saving you are the very ones that not only try to kill you in the end..they sit there explaining to you how GRATEFUL they are that E&A happened to come along..Iolo: "Look, the very murderers we've been searching for all over Britannia!"..I think Richard Garriott was having an seriously off day when he thought of this one. or can this be altered to have a more traditional LB resurrection? It was meant to place a seed of doubt in the players mind as to whether or not E&A were really as evil.

Me: is a he. Guess the name was uninformative. LOL, thats how ultima9 would word the dialogue. You are absolutely right. It bothered me too. I think that they addressed dying in the end and spent about 5 minutes deciding what to do. And then they went to lunch. agentorange seems to have cracked the resurrection. That makes sense. But after trinsic and then minoc, it's pretty clear they are bad people. To tell the truth, I never went into the paws healer, I just restarted from an earlier save (and constantly saved the game)

Some ideas, The gargoyles in U6 had pyramids, so they may have technological interest in the dead, (like the Egyptians did). Maybe the gargoyles have a city in the dead. I would look up all the u6 grave names of the gargoyles and make them appear down there.
I think this is a good BG mod, but the ophidians would maybe have a space here (through the wall of lights) Maybe you could find the hierophants down there (maybe they are still fighting). And you can help do things for them that the avatar later needs in SI. Maybe there should be a version of hell down there.
If Karma has a variable, then maybe it could decide where the avatar goes. Good standing karma could offer a quick return to Britannia, while bad karma would require more work to get out of 'hell.'
Thanks for the interest. Guess it should be a mix of subterranean, and some ether looking chunks.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:42 pm

Hahaha Peg I always thought the same thing!

Companions: "Yeah E&A brought you back in a cart, it was super-cool of them to do so."

Avatar: "Wait...what? You mean to tell me that these people that we've SCOURED BRITANNIA FOR, and ALWAYS A STEP BEHIND... just happened to fall from the sky... coincidently exactly where we were last fighting and stuck my carcass in the back of a cart and brought me here.... and you didn't like.... NAB THEM???

Iolo: "I for one, was dead too after running head first into a death bolt, so there's my excuse"

Dupre: "I was...drunk?"

Shamino: "I was killed by Iolo's friendly fire."

Avatar: "And what's Spark's excuse? Uh... hey...where is Spark?"

Iolo: "We kinda lost him in the deep forest... his lemon-shaped head blends in with nearly every tree there."

Avatar: "D'oh!"

So yes, Elizabeth and Abraham somehow miraculously showing up to haul you back to the poor house (even if THEY were the ones who killed you) never made sense and was kinda outright stupid. Why not let LB resurrect you like always?

My resurrection script works pretty well but has a few kinks here and there I've not worked out yet. An idea for this netherworld would be this: instead of something lame like the Gorlab swamp type of fire... how about a time limit. Say the Avatar can wander around in this netherworld for a few game hours until suddently.... he is whisked away back to LB's throneroom, alive and well. You could have LB say something like "oh hey Nystul found you dead as a door nail with his crystal ball accidentally while he was trying to spy on The Baths, so we brought you back here. And try not to die again, ok chief?" Ok maybe not just like that, but something to that nature- Nystul or LB himself finds out that he's dead and bring him back. That way, the player isn't wandering around lost in a strange world too long if they can't find out where to go.

I believe the TFL peeps included Karma into their mod, I've not figured it out yet but i'd say the code could be altered to put you different places in this underworld based on how high your karma is.

_Olarin · Post by **_Olarin** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:16 am

i think perhaps part of the idea behind the E&A dialogue was a chance to remind you where they were last headed, in case you'd had trouble and lost track of that subplot. unfortunately that detail often makes the problem worse - somehow they always just happened to be "passing by" even when your death location was nowhere near any sensible path between the location they were last at and the one they were headed to? at that point the only remotely believable idea is that they are actually shadowing you and keeping tabs on you or something (you think you're following them but they're really following you!), which would sorta kinda mesh with the idea that they're always one step ahead of you, but even if they're magically savvy it's hard to swallow that they could keep up with you that well if you're constantly employing the carpet, the moongates, and the virtue stones for mark/recall.

i tend to allow some leeway for how death is handled story-wise, though, because the most realistic way to handle it is probably that of Ascension, which i thought was kind of terrible from a gameplay perspective. (oh hey you didn't bother dealing with the horribly slow interface gumps in order to save every five minutes, then you died to a cheap trap? well no mulligans, just sucks to be you! we reward exploration except when we punish it! haha!)

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:18 pm

Agentorangeguy, Thanks for the kudos! Hahahaha.. And I love your idea of a time limit in the underworld! That way, it makes the player WANT to explore what's down there instead of by default 'looking for the fastest short cut'... I mean, definitely have those in place for people who just want to explore that realm later, but keep the clock running at say oh, 6-8 hrs of game time, depending on how complex it is to locate and pray at 'The Shrine of All Virtue' And once the plot is solved maybe reward the Avatar with a stat increase, a Death Scythe, or something else otherwise hard/impossible to get.. Maybe even a piece of seriously valuable information that you wouldn't otherwise be privy too until late in the game; but can help you now.. After the shrine quest is completed; then seal off the underworld and have the game switch to the new 'Traditional LB Resurrection!"

We need to get rid of the sorry ass E&A deal!

Thoughs?

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:06 pm

perhaps depending on how you enter the realm decides how you leave. was thinking of making Horance castle have an entrance, the only non-dying one. Triggers can ask a variable if the time has expired to return, but horance portal can send you to an area without those triggers.
A quick return should be in place always as pegbyter said.
I think the details of a quest being down there should ultimately decide how the return is enabled, or why it is enabled.
The map I envision is as large as britannia, a quest and side plot in itself. Would be cool to make another version of skarabrea where the npcs go once they move on from the real skarabrea. And additional task down there.
I was thinking the boss villain could be the grim reaper, and defeating him means you are no longer challenged by death. And after defeating death, no longer have to return to the realm. And the reward is death's Death Scythe. Great ideas.
So on the one hand it is a solution to the E&A craziness, but on the other, another map available for exploration, a place people would like to explore rather then a punishment. Like feudal lands mod.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:18 pm

That would be interesting for sure with a portal into the death realm via Horance's place. Maybe that big thing he does his dark magic stuff at in the back? Or possibly the well of souls itself... what would happen if the Avatar jumped down there? I know when you look for a sacrifice a few of the spirits couldn't do it without causing it to blow sky high.. mostly Horance and Mordra off the top of my head.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:32 pm

Hmm, they did that deal in U9 where you entered the realm of the trapped souls through Horrances 'well of souls'... The results left much to be desired.. But I blame EA for that one..

The problem with defeating 'death' itself as it were is that if you able to vanquish the 'concept', as it were.. Everyone would immediately become immortal and never die, even if they were hacked to pieces they would be completely incapable of leaving their bodies... Not a pretty picture..

Better to stick with the idea of the central goal being a central Shrine of All Virtue.

Peg

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:49 pm

Yea I didn't get that far in U9... it was too agonizing and depressing as the series was a shell of its former self haha

"Everyone would immediately become immortal and never die" Family Guy covers this concept pretty well when Death breaks his ankle and Peter takes over lol. So yeah, probably shrine of virtue would be the best bet.

janna'surse · Post by **janna'surse** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:01 am

I don't think everyone would become immortal. Just those powerful enough to vanquish death, as the avatar may be. Maybe death is a personal contest with everyone. It's more of an eastern concept, immortality. And since E&A never lets you die anyways, the avatar never really has a chance to die in BG. The nether realm in u9 was small, but the background sound was was scary. One of the only parts of u9 I enjoyed. But, like pegbyter said, it could have been expanded to much more. Monk island pretty much made the avatar immortal, putting him right back where he had fallen.
In this case, immortality would be no longer able to enter that realm with a demise. Which is why another entrance would be necessary.
I was also thinking that the avatar could find an ethereal object that allows him to have a conversation with mortegro (his seance).
Just throwing out suggestions. And seeing what maybe people would like to find in an ultima realm of the dead.
A river styx lol, maybe another ferryman. I wonder if I could reproduce the ferryman on another map.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:33 am

Hmmm that would be interesting about contacting mortegro. possibly a beam of light that shines in the darkness, maybe on a timer itself in random places where spirits are attracted to the light and when you step in it, Mortergo talks to you?

hmm what to put in the land of the dead....a "good" area where good souls go, some sort of paradise maybe wherey ou could find former members of the Resistance, and after the Skara Brae Quest, the spirits there gather in this place and Quenton is reunited with Marney and his wife. Souls from the wars that happneed ont he bloody plains. and on the dark side.... followers of Mondain, Minax, Exodus... Blackthorn's henchmen, and so on. so many possibilities... and interesting conversations that could b edone...

the ferryman was just a shape so you could put him down there too but i don't know about how to reconstruct the ferry. i'm sure it is possible

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:28 pm

Well, I wouldn't go with the whole 'River styx' deal because those are Earth concepts. Not Britannian ones. The dead in Britannia stick around as ghosts; 'Quenton' for example.. Or according to SI they eventually enter the etherial void. When the Tinker Christopher is seanced for example.. (or in this context; the Netherworld Mod)

As far as those that did battle in the Bloody Plains; Half of the battle was fought by men of virtue seeking to destroy the last pockets of evil in the land. So I wouldn't lump those poor guys in the same area as the evil that they fought. As far as when they rise in the plains to do battle again during the night; I prefer to think of that as the land having a living 'imprint' of the past that gets repeated over and over during certain phases of the moons..

The best part about the shrine of all virtue is that since only the avatar can use it; it's logical that those without virtue cant.. Evil Characters, Mondain, Minax, etc... And their sychophants. Good ones only typically embody the virtue of the town they lived in; so most of them are out of luck.. They gotta stay dead somehow unless someone casts a Res spell on them.

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:15 pm

Perhaps a different name then styx. I think the original styx was taken from an earlier Egyptian notion of the nile being the ground version of the milky-way, and thus the kings and queens to be entombed first had to take a journey in a boat down the nile to their tombs. (Which is why tombs often have buried in the those boats.) But many cultures make the dead represented in monuments and land features. Like stonehenge. Britannia has stonehenge style rocks, and a ferrymen to the dead as well, which is on earth too. Yet, you are right to seek to keep things a 'britannia feel' though I think a river of the dead may be appropriate as horance has a well of souls (a water notion) or element maybe. I was thinking of making a dark and black looking water.
I love your idea of the crusade style battles during high tide periods and such. Awesome idea.
A beam of like for mortegro is perfect idea. And the avatar later encounters a similar light, only to be summoned from the dead to a room of evil wizards seeking to capture the avatar's soul.
Also a great idea, the high tides bringing about the actions of souls trapped in behaviors that in some way led to their death, or led to them still being around.
Could make ghost paladin sprites. Revert to black and white and add alpha.
I wonder if lord british can be reprogrammed to die in a deferent way then the plaque above his head.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:30 pm

Thanks.. I'm happy to help with ideas...

As far as killing LB is concerned, nothing in this world gives me greater pleasure than inventing new ways to murder LB... I've written extensively about it before in an earlier thread regarding His will and testament... Click back a few pages in the phorum and read up on it... It's all about Blackmailing LB and extorting crap loads of gold out of him for being a virtueless pig!

Now that I'm getting into Exult Studio myself I'm planning a "Scattered Item's" Mod That I suggested in a separate thread.. I'm excited at the possibilities and have already sketched out a rough outline

Long story, go read the thread "LB's Last Will" to catch up on it...

In any event... If you don't like the Plaque method of offing him, then using Arcadion works quite nicely... As for other ideas... I'd like to see the Glass sword option reinserted, ala U6.. I can think of a few other nefarious ways that our ignoble liege may succumb to his injuries; and would love to list them.. But I don't want to hijack this thread with that... Perhaps we should start another if you're game for programming some of them in....

Peg

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:40 pm

An idea for the mod was that one of horance generals ask the avatar to kill lord british. That this would allow the avatar to be one of them, an agent of horance. Another idea was including an idea similar to another post, dead gargoyles want to capture the false prophet and seal him away from the living forever, while others may aid him instead.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:01 pm

If the Avatar accepted either of those proposals, then he would cease to be the Avatar as all virtue in him would be a loss...

Hawkwind would not approve... I can see it now.. "Repeat after me eight times Oh Once-Avatar; 'Thou Hast Lost An Eighth!"

I was thinking of humorous ways to bring about his demise... We have to be positive about murdering LB!

Peg

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:28 pm

Oh, as an aside, Horrance wanted the Avatar himself to join him as 'His Avatar'.. Remember Horrance's Conversation thread while he's still possessed?

Like I said, read the "LB's Last Will" thread.. And you'll see what we were all referring too when it came to Extorting/killing LB.

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:55 pm

yes, i followed those threads, I've been following this forum for a couple years now. Never really posted though. I would like to see the rotate 45 degrees an esc menu setting one day

Well a "dark path" had been utilized in the DS remake of Warriors of destiny, allowing the avatar to be blackthorn's right hand man and ultimately, well I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't played it yet. So a dark path has already been introduced to ultima before.
Is their any other ideas I should avoid? Actually it wasn't the quest I had in mind down there anyways, but why not squeeze out of such a large map all that I can? Someone had a great idea for making a dead Britannia ruled by Horance, a 'What if' scenario in which the avatar never save skarabrea. That would be an awesome mod.
Of course there can be smaller mods that will implement those various ways to kill LB as you suggested, hope someone makes them. Or an alternative to the E&A rescue at dying. A small mod to change what happens.
Pegbyter's idea of another shrine is perfect idea and deserves all credit for it if I use it. SI had a ninth circle so it would make since that somewhere there would be another shrine. Every additional ultima kept adding circles of stone, sometimes for just an appearance of stone and others for sacrifices in dungeons. But I thought that adding pointless circles were detracting from the importance of the shrines themselves, which in u7 seems to be none anyways. But in did set the stage for finding another shrine. One of all virtues, Super idea!

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:38 pm

Thanks...

You just gave me an interesting thought... The Shrine of All Virtue in the 'dead' center of the land of the dead could be compared to the Shrine of the Codex at the bottom of the Abyss.. On Britannia, it represents an infinity of knowledge that has to be consulted when on a sacred quest.

The Shrine of All Virtue could have an opposing etherial copy of the Codex on it, connected to any number of etherial quests that could be thought of and implemented.. The ultimate reward, resurrection in some prime spot (LB's Throne room) along with full karma; a stat increase above 30 in Int or Dex, and a paragraph of knowledge from the Etherial Codex about the Guardian or the true nature of Batlin and the Fellowship.
Since the Codex is supposed to be in the Etherial Void and that's where the dead go anyway after they leave Britannia.. You get the idea..

It's also been my feeling that once you've found proof of the evil of the fellowship, you should be able to have a conversation thread with LB to reveal this stuff to him, but frustratingly the game doesn't allow it..

Avatar: Hey, the fellowship is evil and according to the Timelord is trying to conquer the world with the Guardian's help and depose LB; Think we should tell him guys?

His Party: Nah, don't bother, he's too busy sleeping with Nell to bother him with something as minor as that..

Avatar: Yah, yer right! Lets get drunk at the Blue Boar Tavern instead! Dupre, what was that again about your visits to all the taverns of the land?

I never could stand that you couldn't warn him...

As far as U5 Lazarus goes with the dark ending... If the thread still exists after all these years on their site, I was actually the first to comment to Tiberius; "Too bad there isn't an evil way to play the game." After which he replied, "Who said there wasn't an evil way?" After which others starting doing just that.

In any event, I agree, make the map large and well populated!
As far as the Horrance 'what if' The problem is, that Canon dictates that the Avatar saved those at the well of souls.. We need to stick to established history to keep things kosher. As a result, NOT doing anything about Skara Brae would only logically translate over to a later Ultima..
And Most likely; the Guardian would have blown away Horrance himself if he got in the way of his conquering Britannia...

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:46 am

They definitely should have spent more time updating the dialogues of npcs. If there is a list of such loose ends, maybe someone could make a mod that fixes these issues. Perhaps someone has suggested this already. I know there was a mod like that for u9.
The horance ruling Britannia mod idea is not mine, I did find it fascinating. But technically the exult engine allows for any kind of development. As long as the mod is enjoyable, I say break all norms. Maybe a possessed spark ruled Britannia.
And his commands are childish as well as cruel. I don't think pagan or ascension will be upset, but maybe some purest would.
Your right about the codex being in the ether. If I make a dead gargoyle city, I may make them have concerns for it. But how it appears down there? I'll probably just stick to death notions.
I enjoy most the combat in u7 and so the large part will be endless terrain to do battle. skeleton dragons. Wizards, and gargoyle wizards.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:48 am

maybe the netherworld should be seperated; a 'Britannian valhalla' type of place for the virtuous dead, but every now and then the evil spirits try to invade it? or they are unable to get there at all? OR......

....with Horance screwing around with the dead and his well of souls, perhaps he upset the balance in the land of the dead somehow. perhaps the evil dead down there are trying to invade the 'britannian valhalla' to enlist more for Horance's undead army. that would keep it kosher with the series.. onc ethe well is destroyed Horance can no longer mess around with things down there.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:17 am

Author: janna'scurse said "Maybe a possessed spark ruled Britannia."

I'll comment on that if you answer me this!

What happens if Darth Vader pukes inside his helmet? Does it drip out the front?

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:27 pm

Nice idea, Valhalla version and another version. Maybe the valhalla version also has a non-dying entrance. Like a rainbow bridge. Perhaps Horance upset the balance and souls can no longer make it to valhalla and are sent downward. And the quest is to restore the balance and fix death. The grim reaper could also be imprisoned and the avatar has to free him, then death rewards him the Scythe.
I know the egyptians had a god who decided the fate of the dead, so maybe since there is a time lord, do away with grim and make a 'death lord', who is imprisoned.
Anther thought I had awhile back is can a weapon trigger more then one action?
U9 has time lord giving the avatar the time stop spell. I was thinking that a staff could temporarily stop time for maybe one or two seconds when used. But maybe it depletes magic points to use. If the damage isn't that incredible but at least stops time when used, it would be an interesting item. Just a thought and probably not doable.
Another thought is a way to implement the hour glass of fate in BG. Maybe it doesn't take you to monk island but allows the death lord to save you at death. And can also heal and resurrect. Won after completing the nether world quest.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:51 pm

janna'scurse asked: "Anther thought I had awhile back is can a weapon trigger more then one action?"

Yes, The Current Death Scythe acts as a curse spell and a mana drain as well as delivering 50 points of damage per blow. Other than that several other weapons, such as magebane drain mana back to the user.. Here's a site that lists weapons values and effects (both magical and non magical) for all the ultima games, including UO..

http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Weapon ... Black_Gate

I don't know if a staff that stops time is doable.. But my thought is that it would be a rather one sided battle if your enemy is stopped in time every time it's hit, thus giving a rather unfair advantage to the player... Besides, an 8th circle mage would already have access to the 'Time Stop' spell which does the same thing..
From my understanding the SpellBook is Hard Coded.. So I don't know the intricacies of assigning spells to objects such as weapons...

janna'scurse said:

"Nice idea, Valhalla version and another version. Maybe the valhalla version also has a non-dying entrance. Like a rainbow bridge. Perhaps Horance upset the balance and souls can no longer make it to valhalla and are sent downward. And the quest is to restore the balance and fix death. The grim reaper could also be imprisoned and the avatar has to free him, then death rewards him the Scythe."

Well, I hate to break it to you, but it's been done before on tv.. If you're a Xena fan, most of you will know the episode where Hades' Helm is stolen by an evil dead guy in Tartarus; who then uses the Helm's power (It's the source of Hades power in the series) to allow all the evil people access to the Elysian Fields, while he sentences all the good spirits to Tartarus. All the while he keeps Hades imprisoned in his castle unable to do much more than watch helplessly until Xena comes by and saves the day by freeing him and fetching his Helm for him.. After which Hades restores everything back to normal and dishes out some extra special punishment for his would be tormenter..

Peg.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:10 am

Oh, and Battles there, if you defeat monsters, especially in their own home territory, where exactly would they go? They can't die. They're already dead!

Small issue...

Peg

janna's curse · Post by **janna's curse** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:24 am

Hmm, was done on a show, guess that means I couldn't use the idea... for some reason. Guess we'll have to rename Britannia since earth already has one. And it's encyclopedia

It's been done before. A little earlier I addressed the dying down there part. Any more ideas I should avoid? I'm starting to have the feeling there will be more.. for some reason.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:52 am

I was a Xena fan but I lost track of it right after Hope and Gabrielle were killed so I wasn't aware of it

I think we can still do this but keep it Ultima related, after all, you could make the connection that Ultima 7 resembles Lord of the Rings in some ways, especially an evil villian trying to return/enter in (Sauron/Guardian) with the help of an powerful underling- Sarumon/Batlin.

We do need an underworld that is seperated: a paradise for virtuous ones and a dark place for the evil ones. Maybe even a "purgatory" for those who were recently deceased (some sort of time that can lapse before they can no longer be resurrected). oooh that gives me an idea.

You have the "paradise" and "the dark side", but it needs to be seperated by a "neutral" zone. In this neutral zone, it is basically like a "holding" area for recently deceased who await resurrection, or those wanting to see if there is a window to the outside (Mortegro's seances). In this area, spirits can still be returned to their bodies if they haven't decomposed too much, or speak to someone who does a seance. Anyway, the "dark side" of this place should be off limits to this neutral holding area, even though occassionally a dark mage is able to raise an evil spirit to wander the earth. The "dark side" should maybe have some sort of guardians or barrier to prevent these evil souls from returning to the land of the living. However, somehow Horance breaks this barrier or removes the guardians, upsetting this balance.

So, the evil souls don't have access to the virtuous side of the underworld, but they have free access to be summoned by Horance in this "neutral' zone and a passage way back through the well of souls if Horance wishes. They also can prevent the virtuous souls from having access to it unless Horance brings them about.

Dieing in the netherworld - your soul is transported back to the place where souls enter - this neutral zone. evil souls killed there go to a darker side of the dark lands... perhaps like Dante's inferno witht he circles of hell and the varying punishments. On the evil side, they fight their way out into the less torturous sides of that evil side.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 am

Again, I'm trying to keep things mostly canon. There's where our fundamental differences lie.
Most everything save for what we discussed way back in the beginning has a basis in Earth Legends or in the latter case; recent TV Greek Mythology.. (Bogus as it may be, it's still based in Greek Mythology.) Like I said; I really do like a lot of the ideas being floated... Again, i'm just trying to avoid Earth based religion & mythological concepts simply because this isn't Earth...

We can avoid that by infusing into the story all the things that made Britannia great instead over the life of the series instead. By taking what we already know about the dead and how the system operates and integrating things from there... For instance, I love your idea of having the Triad of evil and their minions forever trapped down there.. It's Genius!

Even the Avatar has used the Etherial Void since U4 until LB gets around to Resurrecting him... Granted the void didn't factor much into things back then, save for the Avatar finding himself there upon dying. That's why I allow leeway, because that's canon.

The above reasons are why I suggested a 'Shrine of All Virtue' as the culminating quest because it stays true to the series.. Nothing more, nothing less.. Just that simple.

Yes, all spirits ultimately go the void; that's established canon. And that's why starting from there and greatly expanding on it will work nicely. Up until U6 it was a given that the dead forever wandered Britannia as Ghosts.. Ala Quenton, and all the evil ghosts, most of which took up residence in the dungeons... The living imprint in the Bloody Plains, etc...

That's why when Batlin met 'Caine' the Tortured one in Skara Brae; his sanity took a nosedive because the only answer he got from pestering Caine about the questions of life and death is that there "Were no answers.".. Apparently even the quite dead Cain was under the impression there weren't any because he was being tortured by the memories of what he'd done to the city and couldn't deal with what he'd done. He even tells the Avatar that once he's solved the Skara Brae Quest.. But, even Mordra admitted he was only trapping himself in his own nightmare.. (And hence couldn't escape to the void in my mind)
Of course, there wouldn't have been a 'Fellowship' if Baltin had just talked to Mordra first instead and found that indeed, there were answers.. Alas I digress..

None of this was really revealed until it was mentioned by the restored Horrance in U7 that all souls eventually flee to the Etherial Void once released.. Unless they stay behind for a reason; like Quenton hanging around to watch over Marney; and get justice for his murder, etc... The evil dead hang around for revenge on the living; as is classically seen. So we should use these elements in the mod..

What I didn't like about U9 was that they skewed everything by using the long destroyed well as a simple 'slip n slide' tunnel into and out of the Netherworld.. Since it was destroyed 200 years earlier and was simply an empty well, when the Avatar jumps in he should promptly slam his head on a dry well bed.
Instead in U9, he jumps in and and 'poof', instant Netherworld.. To leave, he simply climbs back out the well; and poof! He's back, without so much as a hangover to show for it! He didn't even get inconvenienced with having to leave his physical body behind.. Even Shamino stuck his physical self in there in stasis.. Again, ridiculous even by U9 standards... Well, that was U9; I guess nothing is ridiculous!

But this is the important part, save the dialog patch, U9 either completely abandoned canon or retconned it where convenient. And that's why people hated U9.. I seriously just don't want the same thing to happen to your mod...
Ultima has a rich history... Origin's developers forgot that somewhere along the way and the players balked..

I'm merely suggesting that we draw from established canon and use that as our touchstone.. That doesn't mean we can't go wild with some of the ideas down there! Indeed, lets do that; but also base it in Britannian and SI mythology..

I guess I wind up a purest after all when it comes to canon...
At least; most of it.. I never said there wasn't room for changes!
And believe you me, I prefer to pretend that U7 part 2 was the end of the series.. (at least until U9 Redemption comes out)

Author: janna's curse

"Hmm, was done on a show, guess that means I couldn't use the idea... for some reason. Guess we'll have to rename Britannia since earth already has one. And it's encyclopedia

It's been done before. A little earlier I addressed the dying down there part. Any more ideas I should avoid? I'm starting to have the feeling there will be more.. for some reason."

Um... I'm honestly not trying to be a ass here; really! Please don't take my comments as being negative or dissenting to every single idea you have.. That's not what i'm doing.. I'm not bashing you here... In all seriousness... My Honest Apologies if you think i'm purposely trying to be a killjoy of everything you've put forward... Believe me, I love your ideas... It'll make a great mod! We just need to rework and expand U9's well of souls concept, clean it up, and add a ton of stuff to it to make it plausible.. Yes, use the sky as the limit! Lets do all this while keeping mindful of established canon so we keep it real to the series so we don't go to far out in left field and alienate players.. That's all I'm saying..

As far as the Xena episode is concerned.. I merely pointed out that someone else already thought of the idea and used it in on Xena. Nothing more, nothing less.

If the Mod had ended up in that direction I didn't want the more savvy players thinking in the back of their heads that it was being lifted from tv instead of being mostly original... Lets face it. Most of the people that play these types of games are fans of those types of series and AD&D, etc.. Since they are based on roughly the same elements.. Myself included; and that's why I was able to pick up on it in 2 seconds.. (And no, I don't have it on DVD. It's been years since I've seen that series.)

Again, my sincerest apologies.

Peg.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:42 am

Oh, agentorangeguy, Great idea.

Glad to see that you're a Xena/Hercules fan too!

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:12 am

agentorangeguy said:

"Dieing in the netherworld - your soul is transported back to the place where souls enter - this neutral zone. evil souls killed there go to a darker side of the dark lands... perhaps like Dante's inferno witht he circles of hell and the varying punishments. On the evil side, they fight their way out into the less torturous sides of that evil side."

Not bad, reminds me of an AD&D campaign where the 8th and ninth levels of the 9 hells were at perpetual war with each other. The dead in that case however simply rose on the spot where they lay slain, and promptly went back into the frey. It was of course an unwinnable fight in the physical sense..

I could see your idea happening if those souls reflected on their actions each time they croak in the line of 'duty'; eventually realizing that the war is pointless as nobody can ever win. In that sense, they then 'win' the fight (at least mentally) and become less evil, and move to a higher circle.. Otherwise it would unbalance the mix to have a supremely evil being in a level with much less evil beings.

Semantics.

Peg.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:20 pm

"And believe you me, I prefer to pretend that U7 part 2 was the end of the series.. (at least until U9 Redemption comes out)"

I hear that! Pagan and U9 are dead to me. I think we might have to improvise on a few things to make things make sense, but can still keep with canon. In SI they have a "House of the dead" though technically not part of the game but only a holding area for dead npcs or other plot relevant npcs. somehow there will need to be places in this netherworld to go, for spirits who've 'crossed over' into the void.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:32 pm

Agentorangeguy, I salute you! I always knew that great minds think alike!

I know that place well, I love going there all the time and casting "Mass Death".. Or every spell in the book that yields laughable results!
Grabbing the tracker hound and using him with the cheat whistle. Or pouring the 'Waters of discipline' on Gwenno there! HA! Pickpocketing them all to get their items.. The only thing I regret I can't get is Xenka's Serpent Sword so I can fast finish the game with the items from the other cheat room in the mountains. That and the football field are my favorites. Oh yeah, and the cheat room with all the naked women frolicking around with the magical items in the chests.. LOL! That tops the list!

Yeah, that room is basically a warehouse to store needed characters until called upon by the game engine.. It's the price one pays for Linearity.. Non Linear games (i.e Original BG), get around this by simply having duplicate characters. The developers are secure in the knowledge that unless you cheat, you wont be running into any Dopplegangers before the game is ready for you to.

There are some in SI, multiple Batlins and Party members.. I love teleporting to the white castle and meeting the three banes while your party members are still alive and well! Or, after they are taken over at the Chaos Shrine, teleport to the dead room and recruit them back into your party; which they will happily do! But again; unless you cheat your way through the land, you'll never know that that's the case!

My favorite in BG is hackmoving all the Batlins into the same room at the same time! (The one hidden in the mountains who wont talk and the one in the BG room.) I put both of them into my backpack and release them in the Fellowship hall in Britain.. Three Batlins staring at you all at once!

One is Mute, One wants your head on a silver platter; and the last one wants you to join the fellowship! Truly his favorite friends are "Me, Myself, and I"!!!

HAHAHAHHA!!

Or, hackmoving all the chars in the BG room and releasing them into the world at large! That's even better! The fun truly never ends when one thinks of things in those terms!
God I love to have fun by screwing with the game engine!

But yeah, I agree that The general SI concept can be expanded on excellently if properly executed within canon guidelines.

Peg

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:18 pm

Basically Accusing me of lifting the idea from xena. Never watched an episode. Let's face it? Those who are savvy? All I even suggested was a netherworld. And in exploring an idea for a quest, that maybe a balance is undone by horance who the game already has much concern for. And now I lift ideas from other sources. Not that it would really matter But not in this case. Shame on you. I didn't even have a quest idea when I first posted this thread. Being alienated by my own mod? I hope my mod doesn't agree with you. That way it gives you something further to grip about. You're simply a pill. Now blast me for pointing out your blatant arrogance. way to go.

Pegbyter · Post by **Pegbyter** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:54 pm

Did I miss something?

I never accused you of lifting a story from anyone.. I just happened to remember that Xena episode and mentioned that it sounded exactly like your premise that others may remember as well if they were fans of the series; and that you might not want to go that way.

I also apologized profusely to you in all sincerity in my above post in case I did end up saying anything that may have accidentally offended you in any way, shape, or form while explaining my assertions of why sticking to canon, even loosely is important.

I'm not alienating anything from you.. This is your project, program it as you see fit... You asked for input, hence this thread. agentorangeguy along with others and myself gave you our input.. Until this post I thought it was a good back and forth discussion...

So; once again, I apologize; not from arrogance; but because I genuinely mean it. I'll remain silent from now on.

'Bows deeply'

Peg.

janna'scurse · Post by **janna'scurse** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:19 pm

A divided land of the dead is a good idea. And so is dying once. If the avatar first experiences the place with just one death, then he/she can learn the details of what do to before returning. And that there is another way down there. I think the teleport area with a dragon skull might be a good spot, as suggested earlier. And a spell that Horance could give the avatar to perform there. In FV the avatar has to spill blood on five rocks, I wonder if that can be reproduced to accomplish the entrance to the land of the dead. Water gathered from the well of souls instead of a bleeding tree. Should the shadow lords be found down there, or were they already dead and then destroyed in u5? A shadow lord could have seized control of the three parts of the dead. They were used again in Martian Dreams, so why not down there. Only the good part would be in calamity as well. But this sounds like a good idea more that I think about it. Maybe the death lord is a gargoyle.

agentorangeguy · Post by **agentorangeguy** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:18 pm

I wondered about the shadowlords being down there. I never played martian dreams so i don't know of the context they were in. It would be interesting to see their role in the netherworld on the souls there.